death

graced · Not So Newbie Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 7

When a person dies here on earth, does the spirit sleep and wait for the rapture or does it travel around and sees what is going on down here on earth?

Nobby · Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2002 12:47 pm Post subject: death

quote:
Originally posted by graced:
When a person dies here on earth, does the spirit sleep and wait for the rapture or does it travel around and sees what is going on down here on earth?

Hi graced,
Welcome to the forum! Glad to have you with us!
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No, it dosen't. Your body goes back to the dust, from which it originally came. (From the day of Adam) Our spirit returns to God who gave it!
Ecclesiastes 12:7
12:7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
This section, verse 9-14 has a heading
" The whole duty of man"
Hope this helps. I'll be looking for your posts!
Happy Holidays,
Nobby

[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 01-04-2003).]

graced · Not So Newbie Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 7

How about Dan 12:2 Mulititudes whio sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting comtempt.

When we die and our spirit goes to god what does the spirit do? Does it get to see all the pain and things that go on here on earth and sepecially their loved ones?

victoria · Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2002 7:28 pm Post subject: death

Welcome Graced, to our group. We are happy to have you with us.

The subject that you bring up is one that the bible speaks of in both the old and new covenants. It has a l o t, to say about it.

As far as our earthly physical bodies, Nobby has stated it well. Our bodies go back to dust at death, as God said to Noah.

Regarding what happens after that, there are many differing views. I have a studied belief that when a child of God dies, he is ushered into the presence of God, but has not received his final glory which is set aside for the last day.

I based this on Paul in Phil 1:21-23 saying 'that to live is Christ but to die is gain, but I am in a straight between the two, having the desire to depart and "be with Christ", for it is far better'. In 2 Cor. 5:6,8, Paul says, 'to be absent from the body and to be 'at home with the Lord'.

In both cases, Paul indicates that beyond this life, he expected to be 'with the Lord'; but the Lord is in heaven, which leads me to the conclusion that heaven is where Paul would have to go to be 'with the Lord' after his death.

If this is the case, then when I die as his redeemed child, I will not want to come back here to see what is going on. I am completely sure that I would want to sit below His feet and just stare and praise Him for eternity.

Anyway, that is my take on your thoughtful question. If you study this in detail, you will see there is a gillion verses on death so good luck on this.

Keep on posting, we look forward to knowing you better.

Victoria

graced · Not So Newbie Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 7

Thank you....Who are the Dead in Christ? I don't understand that question either. How about Job 3:13, "For now I would be lying down in peace;I would be alseep and at rest". I understand our body goes back to dust, but I don't know when the spirit returns to God as in Dan 12:13 "As for you go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance".
I know our bodies will be tranfigured into new bodies but I am having a hard time about the spirit. Who are these people these readers are talking to on tv? That scares me. I don't understand....Maybe you can share some light.....peace........graced

Zathrus · Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:50 am Post subject: death

That is an excellent question, graced! And welcome!
As for an answer, I don't have a conclusive one. That's why I say it's an excellent question. I've pondered it and studied it myself, but I'm still uncertain.

The old testament contains quotes such as "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing..." Eccles. 9:5, and "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4.
Passages like these imply an unconscious state after leaving this earthly life. Some believe they suggest a permanent annihilation. I tend to think they mean that the mind does not continue after the decease of the mortal body, but I think the spirit has to be understood as a separate, deeper part of us than our mind, and I believe it does continue.

There are also accounts in the old testament of Enoch and Elijah being taken into the spiritual realm without dying. If there was no afterlife for old testament saints until the second coming, these passages would merely be telling us that God killed them. I don't think that's what happened.

Jesus made some very revealing statements on the subject: "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." Luke 20:37-38. Jesus believed Abrahm, Isaac and Jacob were alive at the time Moses saw the burning bush, which was hundreds of years after they had passed away.
Jesus also said: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." John 8:56. Jesus is saying Abraham was alive and saw the birth of Christ.

As to the references to a resurrection of the saints from the dead at the return of Christ, and saints being considered dead until that time, I tend to think this refered to a restoration of spiritual life, of fellowship and union with God, which occurred at the end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new. When the new covenant was fully established, the separation from God, or spiritual death, that man had been in since the fall in the garden was reversed, and we were brought to life in God's sight.

Matdvd · Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:37 pm Post subject: death

Hummm, kinda surprised we didn't get a "discourse" on this subject when it came up...just give it some time.

I think, (and take that for what it's worth), that those who claim that they are talking to the dead, aren't at all.

And I mean no disrespect to anyone by that. The above question, whether we are waiting for the rapture or are already in God's presence, helps actually. Either way, we aren't walking around here, waiting for some gifted person to hear us talking.

In all honesty, I think that the person(s) are communicating with demons. Not a picture of these evil, ugly fellas that Hollywood shows, but they ARE angels, right?

Anyway, with the angels being around the whole time we were, they would know everything about any person they wanted. It would be way too easy to throw a few facts out and deceive anyone into believing the person was who they say there were, just by knowing a few facts.

In summary, I thinks it really sad that these bad angels are taking advantage of us and our emotions. Who wouldn't want to speak with their deceased Grandma that they miss so much. Sign me up first if it were true. But unfortunately, I think that even if the demons are only doing nice things in doing this, it causes a greater evil in getting us all to be confused about what the bible teaches, and opens up doors to places we probably really don't need to have opened!

You won't see this fella playing with a Ouija board....even if it IS made by a toy manufacturer...

Take care!

METGAT · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:28 pm Post subject: death

Graced asks "who all these people are talking to on TV." I assume she is referring to mediums like John Edward and James van Praagh and the spirits communicating through them.

First of all, we need to understand that much of the Bible comes from mediums or those with clairvoyant, clairaudient, or clairsensient abilities. As Bible scholar Frank Tribbe points out, those who were called "prophets" in ancient times were simply those with mediumistic talents. Further, it needs to be understood that when scripture says "the Lord spoke," we cannot assume that it was God speaking. I do not have the reference offhand, but it is my recollection that the word "lord" translates to "spirit" in the ancient Hebrew. Thus, what came from "the lord" did not necessarily come from God. It came from spirits, both elevated spirits and low-level or immature spirits. When the Old Testament says we should not speak with or consult the "dead," or says that the "dead know not anything," the reference is to "spiritually dead," i.e., those immature or earthbound spirits who lead us astray. Why else would the New Testament say we should "test" the spirits or be "discerning of the spirits" (John 4:1, 1 Corinthians 12:10.) Those passages seemingly make it clear that we have to closely examine what the spirits are telling us and not assume that because the information is coming from the spirit world that it is necessarily truth or that the spirits are "all knowing."

Edward and Van Praagh are reasonably good clairvoyant and clairaudient mediums, but they are "circular" mediums. That is, they provide not much more than evidence that souls exist on the Other Side. Those souls exist in varying states, not necessarily in heaven or hell. Even Paul referred to three heavens. However, there is strong evidence that the Other Side has many realms. Do you really believe that God would classify everyone as either "righteous" or "wicked"? Let's face it, most of us are somewhere in between those extremes.

Many mediums of the Bible provided "spiraling" mediumship. They could go into trance and spirits could speak through them. There are still such mediums and we should not assume that what comes through them is necessarily Truth. We heed the words of the New Testament by "testing" and "discerning" the information coming from them or through them. Mike

Van · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 1:39 pm Post subject: death

1 John 4:1 says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Now a prophet is someone who speaks for God, or claims to speak for God, who claims to have knowledge given to him by God. But if the prophet really does not speak for God, if he is a false prophet, if his discernment is not from God, should be accept it? Nope
How do we know if someone who claims "special knowledge" is not a false prophet?

1 John 4:2 says, "By this you know the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God." So anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Anointed One of God, and that He lived in the flesh, not a spirit, is listening to a "spirit" that is not from God.

Also, in the NIV or NAS when you see the word Lord, look to see if it is presented in caps (LORD) or upper and lower case (Lord).
If it is in caps, then "the LORD" is a translation of Yahweh which is actually presented as YHWH but we believe pronounced Yahweh. When you see Lord it is usually a translation of Adoni. When you see "The LORD says,..." it is YHWH and in all cases that means God Almighty and not an angel or other spirit.

Van · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 2:11 pm Post subject: death

A little more on testing the spirits. 1 Corinthians 12:10 says that one of the gifts of the Spirit (the Spirit of God) is distinguishing spirits. As explained in 1 Corinthians 14:29 when someone speaks as if from God, others (gifted by the Holy Spirit) should judge and offer comments. Today, we test what others say against scripture. And just as described by Paul, we seek the wisdom of hearing several voices concerning interpreting and understanding God's word.

Kindgo · Tadpole Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 20

It is not the soul that sleeps at death, but the body that goes to sleep.

Listed below are some verses that disprove "soul sleep."

Phil. 1:21-24--"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain…But I am hardpressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."

Paul says when he dies it is gain, that he departs, and that he is with Christ which is very much better.

If Paul believed in "soul sleep," then he should have wished that he could live for over a hundred years on earth so he could keep ministering. But the benefit of dying is to be immediately with Christ, which is "very much better" than remaining on earth.

He couldn't have said this if he believed in "soul sleep." Paul also used the word "departure" (the departing of his spirit to heaven) in 2 Tim. 4:6, referring to his death.

2 Cor. 5:6,8-9--"…while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."

Paul is again speaking of his inner man leaving his body at death to be with the Lord. He also said he preferred to be absent from his body so he could be with Jesus.

Notice he said we could only be "at home or absent," not in an in-between state like soul sleep.

Matt. 22:31-32--"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Jesus revealed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead, but living. Their bodies had died, but their souls and spirits were alive awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.

Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise."
The Jehovah's Witnesses cult moves to comma to make it read, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." They change the Bible to fit "soul sleep"!

The phrase "Truly (Verily) I say unto you" is recorded over 70 times in the gospels, but not once "Truly I say unto you today." The thief knew that Jesus was talking to him that day, what he needed to know was when he would be with Him in paradise.

Which makes more sense? "Johnny, I am telling you the truth today, I am taking you to the zoo" or "Johnny, I am telling you the truth, today I am taking you to the zoo." Johnny needs to know what day he is going to the zoo, not what day you are talking to him! The meaning is without question: Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day.

Matt. 17:3-4--Moses and Elijah talked with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Moses had been dead for a long time (Dt. 34:5) and Elijah was caught up alive to heaven. Moses wasn't soul-sleeping.

Luke 16:19-31--The Rich man and Lazarus. When the poor man Lazarus died he was "carried away by the angels" to Abraham's bosom (paradise). When the rich man died he went to Hades (hell) and was in torment.

He was able to carry on a conversation with Abraham, who was on the other side of the chasm (v.26).
Abraham, who lived before Moses and the Prophets, told the rich man that his five brothers had "Moses and the Prophets" so the rich man and Lazarus lived after these books had been written.

This clearly proves consciousness beyond the grave of people who lived during different times on earth.

Those who believe in soul-sleep try to dismiss this verse saying it is "just a parable." Even if it were a "just a parable" (which it isn't), Jesus always taught parables to illustrate truth.

These verses are clear: No soul-sleep.

James 2:26--"…the body without the spirit is dead…"

Heb. 9:27--"It is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgment."

It doesn't say that soul-sleep is in between.

Acts 7:54-60--As Stephen was dying, he prayed for Jesus to receive his spirit. Jesus was in heaven (vv.55-56).

1 Thess. 4:13-18--"…even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus…and the dead in Christ will rise first…"

When Jesus returns at the Rapture, He will bring with Him the spirits of those Christians who have already died and their bodies will be resurrected.
These are the ones that are "ASLEEP IN CHRIST"

2 Peter 2:4-9--"…then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."
The unrighteous are being punished in hell right now.

Jude 4-13--Just as some of the fallen angels are now under eternal punishment, so the wicked are suffering the same punishment

Heb. 12:22-23--These verses tell us who is inhabiting heaven right now. Included are "the general assembly and the church of the firstborn" (New Testament saints) and "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Old Testament saints).

Rev. 6:9-11--This occurs in heaven: The souls of those who have been slain ask God to judge those on earth who have killed them. Verse 11 informs them that there are more on earth that will die.

Rev. 20:4--John sees the souls of those who had died and they received their resurrection bodies and reigned with Christ.

Matt. 10:28--"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and body in hell."
There is a difference between killing the body and killing the soul. The first is physical death; the second is spiritual death or the second death (Rev. 20:6, 12-15).

John 11:25-26--"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die."
For the believer, we continue to live even though the body may die because our spirits will never die.

Luke 8:49-55--The girl had died and Jesus said, "She has not died, but is asleep." Her body fell asleep at death. When He brought her back to life, "her spirit returned" and she rose up (v.55).
Gen. 35:18--Rachel died and her soul departed.
Eccl. 9:5--"…but the dead do not know anything…"
A dead body doesn't know anything. Solomon is speaking from earth's perspective, for life "under the sun" (9:3, 6, 9, 11, 13). Later in the book he explains what happens at death, "the dust will return to the earth as it was (body), and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7).

Psalm 146:3-4--In speaking of death: his spirit departs, he (body) returns to the earth.

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God bless,
Kindgo

The Lord told us to look for the Blessed Hope. He encouraged us to be joyful as we await the
Bridegroom who may call us up at any time. Scripture after scripture after scripture instructs us to look to Israel as God's timepiece. Jesus listed the signs of the times for us and we are to recognize them, NOT deny them. We are to know the difference between the church and national Israel and celebrate Israel's future deliverence. Pretribbers strive to obey all of these wonderful things.

Tiger75 · Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:40 am Post subject: death

Hi Kindgo,

Some good points. Reading your 'signature' what is your justification for being a 'Pretribber'?

Tiger

Tiger75 · Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:58 am Post subject: death

Kindgo,

Sorry just read your post in Revelation and End Times pleae ignore last post.

Tiger

Van · Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2003 5:20 am Post subject: death

Kindgo,

While I agree that the bible indicates a concious awarness between physical death and bodily resurrection, many of your "proofs" seem to me, and I have been wrong before

, equivical at best.

Our bodies for example are not asleep in Christ. They are dead.

Rev 6:9-11 suggests that spirits of the dead, while aware of subsequent happenings are advised to rest until that day. So sleep part of the "time" or "span of their existence" between their physical death and the bodily resurrection is suggested.

Is your point that our spirits face judgment immediately upon death and either enter torment in Hades or "Rest" in Paradise, rather than unawareness until the bodily resurrection?

In any event, thanks for presenting several excellent insights, such as Abraham being aware of Moses.

Kindgo · Tadpole Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 20

Hey there Van!

It was said to them that they should rest a little while longer:
These saints are instructed to wait.

How long do they wait?

Until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. This may mean that they should wait until all God’s appointed martyrs are killed.

Or, because the words the number of are supplied by the translators, not the text, it may mean that they wait until the character of the remaining martyrs on earth is perfected and complete.
It is the way that you live that makes you a martyr, not the way that you die.

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God bless,
Kindgo

The Lord told us to look for the Blessed Hope. He encouraged us to be joyful as we await the
Bridegroom who may call us up at any time. Scripture after scripture after scripture instructs us to look to Israel as God's timepiece. Jesus listed the signs of the times for us and we are to recognize them, NOT deny them. We are to know the difference between the church and national Israel and celebrate Israel's future deliverence. Pretribbers strive to obey all of these wonderful things.