Did you learn your thinking in a book?

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

I have been around this site for a while, and I've found a disturbing trend, which mirrors a trend in the churches as well as secular organizations. People believe that they can learn about the truth by reading in a book. The bible in this case.
But what is the bible? Is it a collection of stories and testimonies, is it a collection of sentences, a collection of words? Or is it the word of God? If it is the word of God, then it is not contained in a book. Most people would lift up a book and say "this is the word of God". No, that's a book. Whether or not someone is able to read and recognize the word of God in that book depends on that person's ability to discern God's word there.
The bible is not unlike nature, and all creation in this way. Creation is also the word of God, but not everyone can see it that way.
If you read the bible and think that the words in and of themselves contain truth, you are sadly mistaken. Only God is truth, and He is not contained in any book, or in anything that can be repeated in mere words. The words of the bible are merely a projection of God's word onto paper, in a particular form. It takes understanding and God's spirit to understand how to interpret it correctly.
So many times on this site, and talking with professed believers everywhere I go, I sense a sick, perverted idolatry associated with the words of the bible, and an unwholesome reliance on an intellectually perceived concept of truth.
God is love, and His word is not merely intellectual. His word resonates within the very essence of a believer - in the soul and spirit. There is a word cult out there, which calls itself the Christian church, and it is the most terrible form of deception, because it steals our very name and identity from us. The word cult is every belief that would put words up as idols - the right phrase, the right doctrine, but not rooted in spiritual understanding, not resonating from within the heart and soul.
In order to fight this corruption we must take a stand on a level deeper than words, and we must refuse to become divided in our own minds, and against our brethren, because of words. These tricksters thrive on such divisions, and always come with doctrines, wanting to talk about doctrines, but not ever wanting to motivate their discussions within the context of the heart and soul. They use empty words to lure us from the power of the way, so that we lose our stance.
We must learn to stand strong, and never allow doctrine peddlers to lure us into empty debates, which boil down to the meaning of words. Let them talk about the heart and soul, or let them leave and pick a quarrel with someone who does not understand the true nature of their trickery. And let us continue to teach, so that none will be confused by their tactics.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

I'm not sure I understand what you are promoting. It seems to me that the great reformation came about just because the Roman Catholic church taught that which they considered divinely inspired even though it ran contradictory to God's Holy Inspired Word.

Are you suggesting we open ourselves up to teachings that contravene scripture?
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JP's Mind - my blog

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Thanks RevJP. Many people would respond that way to what I wrote. It is because we have been trained to judge things from the outside, and not from the inside. However, truth comes only from the inside, and is manifest outside.
The deceiver does not know about the heart/soul reality of truth, so he tries to create the facsimile of truth on the outside.
When it comes to doctrine, of course there is correct doctrine from God, and it deals with the whole man. God's words are understood in the heart, soul and spirit, then last of all in the intellect. But the imitation word comes to the intellect and sounds like a good idea, then the deceiver tries to conform the inside (soul/spirit/heart) to that outside principle. This is like putting the cart in front of the horse; the horse cannot pull it anymore.
Doctrine is just what to call things. And it is important to call things by their right name. But how much more important is it to believe rightly?
Bottom line, It is possible to say the right words, but not believe. So why do they teach us to think that we can unite around words? The doctrine believer wants to talk endlessly about words, and phrases, and how they should be interpreted. But I have spoken to so many who refuse to motivate their thinking in the real word of God - love, dignity, faith, spiritual truth. This is the test of words, to see whether they are hollow or inspired.
I am saying that we have to identify this enemy. The enemy is a way of thinking that makes talk paramount, so that the spiritual root of truth is not respected.
Tell me RevJP, if I learn to describe you in words, according to an accurate description, does that mean I know you? Or, do I have to develop a relationship with you and feel you in my heart to know you? What about Jesus? So if we can only know Jesus in our hearts and spirits, why are we becoming victims of the doctrine first teaching?
Preach the gospel at all times; if necessary use words. Some people think the gospel is an idea, based on words, so that statement would sound strange to them.

ragman13 · German Shepherd Joined: 07 Jul 2007 Posts: 325

Virbate hello, I don't believe that I have read anything of your before. I have some problems with your view.

One you seem to be denying the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Thanks ragman, you saved me some keystrokes...
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JP's Mind - my blog

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Thanks for the responses.
Ragman said:

ragman13 · German Shepherd Joined: 07 Jul 2007 Posts: 325

OK there is so much here I don't know where to start.

I don't think you understand my point, that may be my fault, if so I'm sorry.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Okay. I understand the point you're getting at, and it allows me to make a very important point. Another person on this site has actually raised this point too, and when I first heard the truth I felt the same way. So I understand totally.
You're basically thinking: "Who is this guy? Anyone can say God is with them and they know God. Where is the evidence?".
However you are not correct to say that my statements are subjective; the only things is that you are not aware of their objective truth. I have to be careful explaining this so that our conversation doesn't go around in circles. There are two circles here... one looks for an explanation in the form of words, the other relies on an intuitive (internal) understanding. And this is exactly how the devil is able to accuse the brethren. He says exactly what you just said: "Who is this guy? What evidence to you have? Do you really know that God is with you?"
He tries to lure us into the word game, to defend ourselves, but the minute you try to defend yourself in his terms of reference you have lost the battle. Words do exist that can justify you, and there is an explanation. But again, life does not operate according to explanations, or words. Life is intuitive, internal, spontaneous. I have mentioned music in other posts...
As far as me explaining to you how I know what I know, it is clearly impossible. I mean, I am me, and you are you. We have different backgrounds and perspectives. When it comes to using words we are very limited. If we try to go beyond our limitations and use words in ways that we're not qualified for, we get into trouble and debates. God wants us to know ourselves, and know what we're talking about, not empty or half-empty chatter.
I cannot explain to you in words how I know God, at least not as far as a monologue, or a thesis. It doesn't work that way. But that crazy standard is actually what the doctrine teachers are searching for. An evil generation always searches for a sign. The sign they are looking for is that explanation a, b, c... QED (end of proof). Wild goose chase.
But although I cannot explain that way, we do have the power to reason and fellowship together. God's kingdom is real, but it is not "of" this world. Doctrine is a human concept, "of" this world. For now, we can reason and fellowship with what God has given us. He has given us words of truth, but not the power to motivate our statements according to the false laws of the doctrine teachers. So I know that I know God, and He lives in me, and I know the five witnesses I mentioned. And if you know them too, then we can fellowship and reason together, and Jesus will be there in the middle, and we will know that surely in our hearts. This will not be a theoretical knowledge, but sure knowledge that is reliable, and proven. Just we won't be able to explain to a doubter, or even to an agnostic, how it works.
You have to test the waters, and then you will know. Remember when God's people crossed the Jordan into the promised land? You can't be a skeptic (and I'm not saying you are one, but I'm just explaining a point here), you can't be a skeptic and hold back, and hold judgment in abeyance, and hope to see the truth. Life is active, and here and now. It is a choice, not a passive thing.
The fact is I can never have that doctrine conversation with you or anyone else. It's impossible because I know who I am, and I know the Way. I will never fall into that trap, not again. I've been there, and it is a bottomless pit of questions, then questioning the premises of those questions, and the premises of those... Round and round in a never ending spiral.
But God says, "Be still, and KNOW...". There is not a long explanation or a proof in human thinking. Simply, "KNOW".

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject:

Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Vibrate,
Are you saying that somewhere deep inside the individual is an understanding of what is the truth?
That even though they had not "read" that he who showed mercy was a neighbour, they already knew it somehow in their hearts even without having it taught to them from a book?

That what is written confirms what our hearts already knows..so it becomes a witness to the spirit within us that it is true?
But without the spirit of truth how could one determine truth or lie?
So, does the truth come from reading or does it witness to what is already in us?

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

The thing that stands out here to me is the very thing we face today..how readest thou?
Now he told the lawyer..you have said it right..meaning he knew what he heard but now had to go and perform that which he heard. He had to live according to how he heard it.
If we hear or read and agree that something is right then we should live the way we hear it. But if we know to do this and do it not..then we are living a lie.
We become a lawyer which knows the law..the words which are written, but they haven't taken root in the heart. It's there but the heart is stubborn to claim it as truth.
Not everyone hears the same things the same way.
But the more we hear or read the better our understanding becomes. The more we open our hearts to the words that are written the more engrafted they become.
Not because they are not there in the heart already but because they have been hidden or hardened and the ears have become deaf and the eyes blind.
But some already have this knowledge in themselves and the bible confirms what is already there. To some the first time reading it is what peirces the dark remote places of the heart and let's the light shine out.

I say "out" because I believe the light is already in there and it is covered over with a cloud of darkness.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

The light is already in there:

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

It's an inside out process.

So then when we read the bible because it "speaks" to what is already in our hearts we can relate to it that it is true.
And the bible becomes a testimony or witness to what is already in our hearts that it is true.So it becomes a witness to the witness within us that the bible and our hearts agree that the word of God is true in us.

Without the bible would we know that the one who showed mercy was the neighbour? Or did we not know it until we read it?
Or does reading it verify that what we already know to be true is true?

Is this what your saying vibrate?

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Thanks Lone. Why did God let you quote about the good Samaritan. Please note everyone, that this questioner was trying to destroy Jesus words by asking him to define his words. And note the intention of that questioner is stated in the bible. He was "trying to justify himself". That is the way of the unbeliever, who uses words in the doctrine approach to try to divide and conquer God's kingdom.
Lone has asked:

bigape · Fierce Puppy Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 237

Hi Virbate

I have one question for you, then some Scripture:
--------------------------------------------------
The Question: You have said a lot about God, in this post:
“Where did you learn about God?” “From the Bible or from man?”

-The Bible is our only reliable source of information, about God!-
--------------------------------------------------
You said......

“In order to fight this corruption we must take a stand on a level deeper than words, and we must refuse to become divided in our own minds, and against our brethren, because of words.”

-Words are important:- (Where’s what the Bible says about “words”!)

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Luke 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because
ye are not of God.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
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bigape
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Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

That's been dealt with bigape. I have stated:

bigape · Fierce Puppy Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 237

Hi again Virbate

I apologize, I must have missed this, when I first read your post.

Therefore, I have some new questions for you.

You said.........
here is how I know that what I know is true: God is the source of my knowledge, directly by inspiration in my soul, my spirit and my body.

(1) Have you ever been born again, by trust Jesus as you personal Savior?

(2) How do you know for sure, that it was God, that spoke to your soul, spirit & body?

I will be looking forward to your answers.

Bigape
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Cool.
You asked:

holly102869 · Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:22 am Post subject:

This is a very insteresting topic. I have never thought of these things in this manner. I have been confussed alot by people telling me what scripture means when to me it means something very different. My spouse and I have even started working out many issues that we believed as children growing up, because it was what or how we were told to believe.

Have any of you tried listening to your pastor at church and kept reading after the pastor stopped to realize that he took the scripture way out of context. That it had nothing to do with the subject being discussed. If not I suggest you try it. You can learn alot about your parish this way. Scripture can be twisted to make you believe just about anything. So, be careful not to take ones words and go with blind faith or to believe everything they say.

Good and evil are instilled in each of us and we know right from wrong. Some of you can argue this point but if you really think about it, it is true. God is love. I know in my heart when I have done something I should not have. Many will say you don't know all the wrongs but, if you believe on some level God lets you know it was wrong.
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Bless you,
Holly
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