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Daystar Puppy

Joined: 10 May 2008 Posts: 218 Location: Midwest US
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: Resurrection - Mathew 27:51-53 (Egeiro) |
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"And, look! the curtain of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rock-masses were split. And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people." - Mathew 27:51-53
There are two important things which need to be dealt with when considering the translation of these difficult verses. First, there was no resurrection from the dead into the living and second, the people walking around were not the same that were thrown out of their tombs. This I will demonstrate.
The 1937 translation by Johannes Greber verses 52-3 reads: "Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."
Notice in the actual account that it doesn't say that they themselves were raised up, but that their bodies or corpses were. The Greek verb egeiro is used, which means simply raised or lifted up, it doesn't necessarily imply a resurrection as such. See Matthew 12:11 / 17:7 / Luke 1:69. German scholar Theobald Daechsel gives the following translation: "And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up."
The verses do not describe a resurrection but, rather a simple throwing of the bodies out of their tombs, much like what happened in Ecuador in 1949, and Bogot, Columbia, in 1962, when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor - El Tiempo, Bogot, Columbia, July 31, 1962. This is also similar to what the Greek writer of the second century Aelius Aristides reported as having happened. This is not only a more practical explanation of what happened but it is also much more in harmony with the scripture. A great deal more so than what Augustine, Theophylactus, Zigabenus, and Epiphanius thought, which was that there was a resurrection of the dead. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, when the apostle Paul gives proof of the resurrection he ignores the account at Mathew 27, and Colossians 1:18 certainly wouldn't be in harmony with the idea that the aforementioned apologists indicated.
Adam Clarke, states: "It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned in verses 52 and 53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes, others think the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christs resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city. Why the graves should be opened on Friday, and the bodies not raised to life till the following Sunday, is difficult to be conceived. The place is extremely obscure."
The pronoun "they" mentioned at Matthew 27:53 could not have referred to the "bodies" in question, that is those having been lifted up, because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and "they" is in the masculine, whereas "bodies" is in the neuter gender. It is an extremely difficult text, which even the ancient manuscripts are not in agreement with, for example, the Sinaitic omits the words "and the memorial tombs were opened" and "entered."
The fact is that these verses are the most difficult in all of the Christian Greek Scriptures to translate. With their contradictory reading and the variations in the most ancient manuscripts there is the possibility that should be considered which is this. It is possible that these verses were not written by Matthew himself, but added later by an early copying hand. The Greek word for "resurrection" used here, is egersis, and it occurs nowhere else in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Also, only here is used the expressions "the saints," and "holy ones" before the Pentecost. They are found in the apocryphal Gospel of the Nazarenes, which is held by some to have been Matthew's original Gospel in Hebrew, which he later translated into Greek. It is suspect at the least.
The difficulty in the ambiguous nature prevents anyone from a precise translation, but this doesn't necessarily indicate anything in and of itself outside of the difficulty. Any translation would depend upon how well it fits within the remaining Scripture, and the notion that these "saints" were resurrected from death to life doesn't fit. |
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doctrellor Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008 Posts: 989 Location: Twin Cities
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Good study, thx for the info ..
Your right, it is a difficult passage, and with the historical tidbit to back up your thinking was a neat bit ..
Good work _________________ Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement! |
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Nickman Labrador

Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 312 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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To add: Jesus is the Firstborn from the dead and the first to be resurrected by God. So with that said it is impossible that the text is saying that people actually came out of their graves alive.
We must look then to the translation as you have done well.
Always scripture with scripture.
Nick |
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Mattathias King Kong

Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 2040 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Nickman wrote: | | To add: Jesus is the Firstborn from the dead and the first to be resurrected by God. So with that said it is impossible that the text is saying that people actually came out of their graves alive. |
Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the grave. Lazarus came out of the grave alive, didn't he? _________________ "All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Nickman Labrador

Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 312 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Nickman wrote: | | To add: Jesus is the Firstborn from the dead and the first to be resurrected by God. So with that said it is impossible that the text is saying that people actually came out of their graves alive. |
Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the grave. Lazarus came out of the grave alive, didn't he? |
Yes but only to die again not to eternal life. Jesus was raise by God to eternal life. Lazarus was just a dead man walking because he would go back to his grave. Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection to eternal life.
Scripture with scripture
Nick |
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Mattathias King Kong

Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 2040 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Nickman wrote: | | Yes but only to die again not to eternal life. |
Agreed. Why then could that not also be the case with the people who came out of the grave (only to die again, not to eternal life) in the incident raised in the OP? _________________ "All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal
Last edited by Mattathias on Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nickman Labrador

Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 312 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Nickman wrote: | | Yes but only to die again not to eternal life. |
Agreed. Why then could that not also be the case with the people who came out of the grave (only to die again, not to eternal life) in this instance? |
It could but the original Greek seems to point elsewhere. The graves were opened by the earthquake and the bodies were exposed.
Nick |
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Mattathias King Kong

Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 2040 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Nickman wrote: | | It could... |
So it cannot be absolutely excluded as a possibility? _________________ "All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Nickman Labrador

Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 312 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Nickman wrote: | | It could... |
So it cannot be absolutely excluded as a possibility? |
Sure as long as it doesnt go against the order: First Christ then those that are dead in Christ then those that remain at his coming. The others would have had to die again but we dont see that either. The most plausible is the original text.
1 Thessalonian 4:14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This is the order
Nick |
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Mattathias King Kong

Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 2040 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Nickman wrote: | | The others would have had to die again but we dont see that either. |
I don't think scripture explicitly tells us that Lazarus died again after he was resurrected. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about that.) If Lazarus could be resurrected from the dead for a while (only to die again and return to the grave to await the return of Messiah and resurrection to life in the age to come), then I don't see any particular difficulty with the same happening to the persons involved in this incident. (That would fall within the order you outline below.)
| Quote: | 1 Thessalonian 4:14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This is the order |
Agreed. _________________ "All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Nickman Labrador

Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 312 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't think scripture explicitly tells us that Lazarus died again after he was resurrected. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about that.) If Lazarus could be resurrected from the dead for a while (only to die again and return to the grave to await the return of Messiah and resurrection to life in the age to come), then I don't see any particular difficulty with the same happening to the persons involved in this incident. |
It could have happened but I dont believe it did. The original text points the other way.
We dont know If lazarus died again or not but it is safe to say that he did because it would be out of the prescribed order.
Nick |
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Mattathias King Kong

Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 2040 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Nickman wrote: | | It could have happened but I dont believe it did. The original text points the other way. |
Thanks for your input. I'll have to research it further some time.
| Quote: | | We dont know If lazarus died again or not but it is safe to say that he did because it would be out of the prescribed order. |
Agreed. _________________ "All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Nickman Labrador

Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 312 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Nickman wrote: | | It could have happened but I dont believe it did. The original text points the other way. |
Thanks for your input. I'll have to research it further some time.
| Quote: | | We dont know If lazarus died again or not but it is safe to say that he did because it would be out of the prescribed order. |
Agreed. |
Here is an exhaustive book written in the 1800's it covers alot of bible topics that people overlook. Use with an open bible. I dont agree with everything but 90 percent I would. http://www.thechristadelphians.org/btcd/BTCD/htm/elpis/index.html |
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Mattathias King Kong

Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 2040 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link. I'll give it a gander. _________________ "All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Gerhard Ebersöhn Puppy
Joined: 17 Oct 2008 Posts: 217 Location: SA
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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I doubt whether anyone has ever done better on this Scripture than Klaas Schilder, "Christ Crucified", the third book of his trilogy on 'the passion of Christ' Paideia Premier, St Catherines, Ontario, Canada, translation from the Dutch by Henry Zylstra. Cushing-Malloy, Inc, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA, 1979. Chapter 23. |
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