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fallen4shell
House Cat
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Arkansas
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 Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Should "lost" people come to church? |
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This is a question that I have been pondering about recently and I thought perhaps that someone who may read this post might have some input.
Where in the Bible does it ever command/imply that "lost" people are or should be a part of the church (church specifically referring to a group of people coming together to worship OR collectively referring to the body of believers in any given area)?
In old testament times were the heathen allowed to sacrifice in the temple? Have you ever seen a verse in the new testament where Paul or Peter or any of the apostles talked about recruiting lost people to come and worship with the believers? In fact, is not the very DEFINITION of the church a body of believers? How then can a professed "unbeliever" be in any way part of something that, by it's very definition, excludes him.
It seems to me that bringing someone who does not believe in God to a service which is [supposedly] set aside to WORSHIP God is, to say the least, counterproductive for both us and them. So why do we do it then? Well, I suppose that the easiest and most common answer to that question is so that they can hear the message of Christ and then [hopefully] accept Him. While that seems at first glance to be a worthwhile goal, we should take a minute to think about what we are sacrificing for it.
Please understand that I do not question the explicit instructions given for us to preach and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, but if I remember correctly Jesus commanded his disciples [followers] to GO OUT and preach the gospel to all nations and to GO OUT and baptize, etc. He sent people out with instructions to teach and heal and baptize, not to invite unbelievers to worship with them in the temple (or anywhere else for that matter). What sense does it make for us then to invite the unsaved to come to our worship services? Shouldn't they first believe in Christ before they are asked to worship Him? When and why did this whole practice of "inviting lost people to church" become so popular among Christians? Was this ever mentioned as a legitimate strategy for converting people to become followers of Christ? |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Well, firstly, you seem to assume that only those who do not attend church are "lost".
Now, in many translations, the word "Church" is seldom used.
Secondly, the "Church" being the body of believers, and the task of the Church is to add to that body of believers, bringing people to know The Christ, I can refer you to Acts 2, v 46 - 47:
| Quote: | And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(KJV) |
So the "lost" come to the assembly of believers to hear the Word, and them that hear the Word and understand, are drawn to the same assembly of believers, to add to the that assembly.
They are now, no longer "lost", but are of the Church.
True, in the OT, the Israelites held to their assembly and only the "Chosen" were allowed in the temple, but as we can see from studying the texts, all who entered the Temple were not righteous.
Frankly, I have a difficult time getting my mind around a "members only" church.
I guess they exist, but the concept is so foreign to all that I have learned, I cannot imagine it.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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fallen4shell
House Cat
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | | Well, firstly, you seem to assume that only those who do not attend church are "lost". |
I apologize if it came across that way. I don't, by any stretch of the imagination, think that everyone who attends "church" is a believer. In fact, that was kinda the point that I was driving at to begin with. Perhaps we should define first what we mean when we say "church." When I use the word church I am referring to one of two things, either (a.) the believers/followers of Christ in a given area -- which is what I personally believe the "church" was in the early years following Christ's ascension...keep in mind that during the days of the apostles Christianity was a persecuted religion. There were no big fancy "church" buildings (ex. the church of Ephesus would include all those in Ephesus who professed to be followers of Christ). Or, in a more modern sense, I might use the word "church" to mean (b.) simply a group of people who meet in a designated place for the purpose of worshipping God. Do those definitions sound fair to you?
I do understand your difficulty in grasping the notion of an exclusive "church." I too have always been taught and been one to believe that the church doors should be open to all and that a church should be a safe place and haven for the "lost" to come and learn about Christ. There really is no question as to whether that is the traditional veiw of how a church should operate. I guess what concerns me is that most of the churches that I have attended seem to have become so heavily focused on converting people to Christ that said goal has become ALL that the church service is about. There seems to be very little worship, fellowship, or discipleship going on for the benefit of those who are ALREADY Christians. As a result, we Christians end up sitting idley by as mere spectators crossing our fingers and hoping that preacher can talk someone into accepting Christ or being baptised this week. There is little opportunity for spiritual growth or even genuine worship as I view it. Furthermore, this plight produces many new Christians who are effectively converted and then practically ignored. New converts are told that they need to get involved in the church and join in the effort to win others to Jesus....but they are not discipled or encouraged to GROW their own spiritual lives -- and by spiritual growth I mean learning to hear, listen to, and obey the voice of God in their lives. Spiritual growth in many modern churches seems to be measured by involvement in the church rather than the quality of one's relationship with God.
What seems to be happening because of this is that so many "baby Christians" (and even some non-Christians) are becoming more and more involved in the church and taking on more and more positions of responsibility and leadership. Just as during the pagan infiltration of Christianity via the edict of Constantine, I believe that our worship services and meetings are being tainted with the false doctrines of leaders who have never really been discipled in Christ since their spiritual birth.
| ShardikSon wrote: | Secondly, the "Church" being the body of believers, and the task of the Church is to add to that body of believers, bringing people to know The Christ, I can refer you to Acts 2, v 46 - 47:
| Quote: | And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(KJV) |
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I agree that we are commissioned to share the good news and preach the word of God to those who are "lost", but I also feel that there is a need for fellowship among believers to exhort and encourage one another in Christ, and also to worship God collectively and in unity. Perhaps if we had a separate assembly strictly for the purpose of educating those who are interested in Christianity so that once converted they would be able to join the main assembly where they would be encouraged to grow in the spiritual walk with God. Does that make any sense? |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| fallen4shell wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: | | Well, firstly, you seem to assume that only those who do not attend church are "lost". |
I apologize if it came across that way. I don't, by any stretch of the imagination, think that everyone who attends "church" is a believer. In fact, that was kinda the point that I was driving at to begin with. Perhaps we should define first what we mean when we say "church." When I use the word church I am referring to one of two things, either (a.) the believers/followers of Christ in a given area -- which is what I personally believe the "church" was in the early years following Christ's ascension...keep in mind that during the days of the apostles Christianity was a persecuted religion. There were no big fancy "church" buildings (ex. the church of Ephesus would include all those in Ephesus who professed to be followers of Christ). Or, in a more modern sense, I might use the word "church" to mean (b.) simply a group of people who meet in a designated place for the purpose of worshipping God. Do those definitions sound fair to you?
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Absolutely.
| fallen4shell wrote: |
I do understand your difficulty in grasping the notion of an exclusive "church." I too have always been taught and been one to believe that the church doors should be open to all and that a church should be a safe place and haven for the "lost" to come and learn about Christ. There really is no question as to whether that is the traditional veiw of how a church should operate. I guess what concerns me is that most of the churches that I have attended seem to have become so heavily focused on converting people to Christ that said goal has become ALL that the church service is about. There seems to be very little worship, fellowship, or discipleship going on for the benefit of those who are ALREADY Christians. As a result, we Christians end up sitting idley by as mere spectators crossing our fingers and hoping that preacher can talk someone into accepting Christ or being baptised this week. There is little opportunity for spiritual growth or even genuine worship as I view it. Furthermore, this plight produces many new Christians who are effectively converted and then practically ignored. New converts are told that they need to get involved in the church and join in the effort to win others to Jesus....but they are not discipled or encouraged to GROW their own spiritual lives -- and by spiritual growth I mean learning to hear, listen to, and obey the voice of God in their lives. Spiritual growth in many modern churches seems to be measured by involvement in the church rather than the quality of one's relationship with God.
What seems to be happening because of this is that so many "baby Christians" (and even some non-Christians) are becoming more and more involved in the church and taking on more and more positions of responsibility and leadership. Just as during the pagan infiltration of Christianity via the edict of Constantine, I believe that our worship services and meetings are being tainted with the false doctrines of leaders who have never really been discipled in Christ since their spiritual birth.
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You make some good points. That trend is very evident, even into some of the really BIG churches.
I often feel that for many churches, the whole Christian thing is like a variation of the AMWAY marketing system. you bring two people to church, and if each of them brings two people to church, and so you get brownie points for those, and then for each one in your pyramid, you gets points, or some such.
All is marketing and image, and no substance.
| fallen4shell wrote: |
| ShardikSon wrote: | Secondly, the "Church" being the body of believers, and the task of the Church is to add to that body of believers, bringing people to know The Christ, I can refer you to Acts 2, v 46 - 47:
| Quote: | And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(KJV) |
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I agree that we are commissioned to share the good news and preach the word of God to those who are "lost", but I also feel that there is a need for fellowship among believers to exhort and encourage one another in Christ, and also to worship God collectively and in unity. Perhaps if we had a separate assembly strictly for the purpose of educating those who are interested in Christianity so that once converted they would be able to join the main assembly where they would be encouraged to grow in the spiritual walk with God. Does that make any sense? |
It saddens me that so few churches offer real meat for the soul.
We have been very fortunate, here. We have been attending a church where the focus is on
1. Bringing the spiritual needy to Christ
2. building our own faith and understanding
3. raising the children to be firmly planted in The Word, so that they are prepared to face the world out there with confidence, and to hold their faith in everything they encounter.
The thought is that the children are The Church of tomorrow and without them, we perish.
Nearly every sermon, I hear words of encouragement, words of wisdom, and words that challenge my assumptions about life and faith.
We also work at developing fellowship, and support for each other and our community.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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fallen4shell
House Cat
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | We have been very fortunate, here. We have been attending a church where the focus is on
1. Bringing the spiritual needy to Christ
2. building our own faith and understanding
3. raising the children to be firmly planted in The Word, so that they are prepared to face the world out there with confidence, and to hold their faith in everything they encounter.
The thought is that the children are The Church of tomorrow and without them, we perish.
Nearly every sermon, I hear words of encouragement, words of wisdom, and words that challenge my assumptions about life and faith.
We also work at developing fellowship, and support for each other and our community. |
I certainly envy you in that sense. The church I am attending now is probably one of the better ones that I have been to, but is still pretty devoid of discipleship I think. I havn't been going there long, I guess time will reveal all. I'm not looking for the "perfect" church assembly, but it would be nice to find one who were open to views other than the mainstream Christian hoopla. It seems like every time I start attending a church they are talking about a building project....so much seems to revolve around growth in numbers rather than spiritual growth. Anyway, my purpose for this post was not really to start church bashing...it really doesn't accomplish anything. I see so much wrong with the modern "church" and yet I feel so helpless to fix it. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hi fallen4shell
You ask a very interesting question;
One that I have never thought of.
The quick and simple answer is found in.........
| Quote: | Acts 20:28
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
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Pastors are giving the instruction, to minister to God’s people at Church.
And to the best of my knowledge(right now), the teachings of the Bible, are exclusively for God’s people.
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In 2 Timothy, when the Bible mentions evangelism........
| Quote: | 2 Timothy 4:5
“But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.”
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The “work of an evangelist”, is simply talking about, majoring on “preaching”, when ministering.
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But I know, that I am probably missing something.
Thank you for your thought provoking question.
I will start digging into God’s Word, for a better answer!
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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dgh_1984
Newbie Alert
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: Church |
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| I think in these days, we have to go to the church to hear the word of God preached. You don't see people standing on the sidewalks preaching these days. But I want to know, if the church doors are open for everyone, believers or nonbelievers, why is it so hard to walk through those doors? Due to distance issues, the best church I have attended that is all about the word of God and fueling our faith is too far to drive, so I am looking to find a church closer to home. So, why am I so apprehensive about it? I think it comes down to what was mentioned before about churches being all about the numbers and expanding; how does someone know which is the right place? I am not "lost", but have been out of church for some time now due to certain circumstances and I am trying to restrengthen my faith, but I would think that if I was "lost" I would be welcomed no matter where I go. You have to look at the other side of things and think how those "lost" people feel about stepping into a totally new and different aspect of life and we should welcome them with open arms and not judge, but help them any way we can to become a christian. In a way, I kind've feel like one of those people. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Welcome dgh_1984
You asked........
| Quote: | “I think it comes down to what was mentioned before about churches being all about the numbers and expanding; how does someone know which is the right place?”
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The way to know “the right place”, is understanding what it happening........
| Quote: | 2 Timothy 4:2-4
V.2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
V.3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
V.4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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You also said........
| Quote: | “Due to distance issues, the best church I have attended that is all about the word of God and fueling our faith is too far to drive”
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You have to consider how important your walk with the Lord is.
(Is it important enough to drive 50miles(one way), three times a week?)
This distance was just a guess, but think about what people did 100 years ago.
(Families would travel a great distance by wagon, and make going to Church an all day event.)
They didn’t do this because they didn’t have TV, but because they loved the Lord more than most Christians do today!
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If indeed you love the LORD, and are truly concerned about your walk with the Lord, than you need to bite the bullet, and support that good Church(with your presence), so it will be their for your kids.
_________________
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1813
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
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This says what I feel:
If We Are The Body - Lyrics
Artist(Band):Casting Crowns
It's crowded in worship today
As she slips in
Trying to fade into the faces
The girls' teasing laughter is carrying farther than they know
Farther than they know
CHORUS
But if we are the Body
Why aren't His arms reaching
Why aren't His hands healing
Why aren't His words teaching
And if we are the Body
Why aren't His feet going
Why is His love not showing them there is a way
There is a way
A traveler is far away from home
He sheds his coat
And quietly sinks into the back row
The weight of their judgmental glances tells him that his chances
Are better out on the road
CHORUS
But if we are the Body
Why aren't His arms reaching
Why aren't His hands healing
Why aren't His words teaching
And if we are the Body
Why aren't His feet going
Why is His love not showing them there is a way
Jesus paid much too high a price
For us to pick and choose who should come
And we are the Body of Christ
Chorus (2x)
If we are the body
Why aren't His arms reaching
Why aren't His hands healing
Why aren't His words teaching
And if we are the body
Why aren't His feet going
Why is His love not showing them there is a way
Jesus is the way
_________________
Cybermonsters (Most Beloved Admin)
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Great lyrics and very true words the "church" needs to hear today. Thanks. God bless.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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fallen4shell
House Cat
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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I, too, share the opinion that there should not be any list of "requirements" in order for us to let someone into our worship services. I am not in favor of turning someone away on the basis of seeing them out drinking the night before or because they are homosexual or are cheating on their wife, etc. As long as they are professing "Christians" (followers of Christ) then that, to me, is all that should matter. Indeed, we Christians as a "body" are much to judgemental on others, especially our own.
My intention in starting this thread was by no means to imply that we should make church into some kind of exclusive "club" at which there are bouncers at all entrances chasing away anyone who doesn't fit our description of what a "christian" ought to look like. I simply wanted to try and isolate what the purpose of our "worship services" is and should be.
Personally, I think that "coorperate worship" and fellowship with other believers is a necessity to developing fruitfulness and maturity in one's spiritual relationship with God. So, in my mind, THAT should be the purpose of our "church" meetings. Do you all not agree?
So I guess my issue is not so much with allowing unbelievers to come to our worship services, but rather with having our "worship services" centered around trying to convert those few unbelievers who may show up on any given Sunday. As I said in one of my earlier posts, when evangelism becomes the center of our services rather than worship, then: | Quote: | | We Christians end up sitting idley by as mere spectators crossing our fingers and hoping that preacher can talk someone into accepting Christ or being baptized this week. There is little opportunity for spiritual growth or even genuine worship as I view it. Furthermore, this plight produces many new Christians who are effectively converted and then practically ignored. New converts are told that they need to get involved in the church and join in the effort to win others to Jesus....but they are not discipled or encouraged to GROW their own spiritual lives -- and by spiritual growth I mean learning to hear, listen to, and obey the voice of God in their lives. Spiritual growth in many modern churches seems to be measured by involvement in the church rather than the quality of one's relationship with God. |
So what, then, is the solution? In short, I don't know. I have a few ideas, though. For those who are not in favor of an "exclusive" church there are certainly other ways to approach the issue.
Try to put yourselves in the shoes of an unbeliever coming to "church" for the first time to see what we are all about. What are they going to see? Are they going to see a glorified pyramid scheme, like ShardikSon suggested, where the whole purpose of the organization is simply to get more people into the organization? The more people who are "recruited", the more dues (aka...tithes) come in and therefore the more "successful" the church is. Is that really the message we want to convey?
Is that not how we act sometimes though? When a brand new Christian comes to us and askes us the question "what should I do now" what do we tell them? "uh....er....well....just try not to break any of the ten commandments and recruit more people for the pyramid!"
I can't speak for anyone else, but if I were an unbeliever I know what I would be thinking: all SCAM and no SUBSTANCE. No wonder so many people have a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to Christianity.
Perhaps if we were to focus our services on just WORSHIPING God and encouraging one another and LIFTING UP one another in Christ then the evangelism aspect would take care of itself. Imagine if you were that same unbeliever coming into a place where everyone, despite their differences, had one common goal: praise, love, and adoration of the ONE who is the center of thier lives. Don't you think that would make a little bit stronger case for the substance of our religion? If we were encouraging each other to do what is right instead of judging others for what they are [allegedly] doing wrong wouldn't that speak better of us? And then, at the end of all that, if you INSIST on letting unbelievers come to such a service, you could invite anyone who is not a believer and is interested in Christianity or has questions about what it's "substance" is to talk to you after the service and you would be glad to answer any questions. You could even offer a subsequent class for the sole purpose of educating anyone who is interested in Christianity. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| fallen4shell wrote: |
Perhaps if we were to focus our services on just WORSHIPING God and encouraging one another and LIFTING UP one another in Christ then the evangelism aspect would take care of itself. Imagine if you were that same unbeliever coming into a place where everyone, despite their differences, had one common goal: praise, love, and adoration of the ONE who is the center of thier lives. Don't you think that would make a little bit stronger case for the substance of our religion? If we were encouraging each other to do what is right instead of judging others for what they are [allegedly] doing wrong wouldn't that speak better of us? And then, at the end of all that, if you INSIST on letting unbelievers come to such a service, you could invite anyone who is not a believer and is interested in Christianity or has questions about what it's "substance" is to talk to you after the service and you would be glad to answer any questions. You could even offer a subsequent class for the sole purpose of educating anyone who is interested in Christianity. |
Absolutey, A-1 right on, Brother.
This is, or should always be, the focus of a chruch that wishes to grow in God. IMHO
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Should "lost" people come to church? |
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| Quote: | | Should "lost" people come to church ? |
YES !!!
Jesus Christ knew the final fate of Judas....Yet, He kept him in the group anyway.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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fallen4shell
House Cat
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Should "lost" people come to church? |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Jesus Christ knew the final fate of Judas....Yet, He kept him in the group anyway. |
First of all, Judas was a disciple of Christ, he was not an un-believer. Personally, I believe that Judas did what he did because he believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and he wanted to jumpstart the revolution....not because he was greedy for the money. He, like so many of Christ's followers today, thought that he would "help" God accomplish his goals....but he was simply confused about what those goals were exactly. This, in my mind, would explain why he felt such remorse (eventually committing suicide) about how everything turned out.
Secondly, I don't necessarily believe that Jesus "knew the final fate" of Judas. At some point, obviously, it was revealed to Jesus that Judas would betray him, but I don't subscribe to the doctrine that Jesus was Omniscient. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Should "lost" people come to church? |
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| fallen4shell wrote: | | Secondly, I don't necessarily believe that Jesus "knew the final fate" of Judas. At some point, obviously, it was revealed to Jesus that Judas would betray him, but I don't subscribe to the doctrine that Jesus was Omniscient. |
Let me ask you something....was Jesus God, in human form ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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