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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Designed??? I don't think so ahni. |
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ID is a sham, has been from the very beginning.
Living systems give no indication they were 'designed' In fact several things come to mind immediately that show they couldn't have been designed:
1. No two living systems are alike. Identical twins being the exception. They are two halves of the same whole.
2. Living systems are overwhelmingly inefficient.
3. No engineer would keep his or her job if the systems they designed required 25 to 40% downtime for their designs. Living systems almost without exception require from 6 to 10 hours of sleep per day.
4. Replication(reproduction) is inefficient.
a. Only 25% of Giraffes born reach maturity. To say this is by design says a lot about the so called "Intelligent Designer"
5. Replication is imperfect. No two living systems are alike. One does not need a designer unless they want exact copies.
ID does not stand alone. Without the Theory of Evolution, ID would have nothing to say.
ID is dishonest. They say publically with an implied wink they do not know the identity of the designer. But, they can quote you chapter and verse from his so called 'word'
There is much much more. I will be covering that information when I do my series on the weaknesses of Creationism/ID. Stay tuned.
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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So what you are saying is that because things don't work the way you think they should it means they were not designed that way?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1813
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| *insert suspense music here* |
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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: What I am saying is... |
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| RevJP wrote: | | So what you are saying is that because things don't work the way you think they should it means they were not designed that way? |
Creationists and ID'ers are calling systems 'designed' that exhibit no properties indicative of design.
What I posted, unlike what you call "THE WORD OF GOD" needs no interpretation. It says what it says with nothing implied between the lines.
Instead of trying to 'interpret' what I said, why don't you prove me wrong using your own engineering and design knowledge?
I stopped trying to figger out what goes on in fundamentalist Christians heads about the time I turned 18. Having lived in a household that contained one Church of God Minister and one Independent Baptist Sunday School teacher I had hourly opportunities to try. So maybe you should give yourself a break and stop expending brain power trying to figger out what goes on in my head.
I just thought of a great analogy. How does one compare a human design with an 'Intelligent Design?' It should be something simple and perform a function most people are very familiar with, sewing.
I am not as shy as most ID proponents in saying I think their designer is God. It is assumed by most that anything God would 'design' would be perfect far beyond the capabilities of mere clay (humans). I mean this is God we are talking about not some minor deity like Dionysius.
No intelligent design specifically functions as a sewing machine, but, millions of intelligent designs sew.
On God's side then we have Betty, who sews all the time. No one we know sews better than Betty.
On the normal designer's side we have the AutoSystemSewer 2008. It was designed to sew two pieces of cloth together automatically without outside intervention short of replenishing materials used like thread, cloth and the occasional needle.
Which, JP, do you think performs the best here the God Designed System or the human designed system?
Betty has the same inventory, needs as AS. Betty can acquire her own supplies, but, she has to stop work to do so. AS doesn't need to stop to restock as long as her supplies are not allowed to run out.
JP or one of the other ID proponents on here can probably find some other nits to pick, but supply is the big difference between these two relatively comparable systems.
Lets start with uptime. I spent three years in the textile industry working for a company that designed and built automated equipment. Most of the machines we created did some form of automated sewing. When a customer signed off on a design specification, one of the first specs in the agreement is expected downtime. Typically this ranged from 2 - 6%. So AS if she had the max expected downtime, she would be out of service for an hour and 26 minutes every day.
What are Betty's downtime needs? We mentioned restocking earlier. Let's say Betty is pretty efficient at this and only takes 5 minutes each time she reups. Let's give Betty some leeway too, she is after all only human. Lets say that this five minute break allows her enough time to load 4 rolls of cloth into her hamper along with sufficient needles and thread for processing four rolls of cloth. Now Betty and AS have the same amount of supplies each time they are replenished. But Betty does not live by sewing alone. She must be fed on occasion. Unlike AS who has her fuel wired into her circuits, Betty has to acquire and consume her fuel. She also has to process it into useable form, but that usually won't significantly affect her ability to sew. Assuming a single meal per day, Betty's refueling requirement should have her down for at least ten minutes.
At 15 minutes Betty is way ahead of AS in the downtime category.
But doesn't Betty have other downtime needs? Sure all living creatures(systems) gotta sleep. Sleep is so important to humans and Betty is 100% human, that terrorists use sleep deprivation as a form of torture. Sleep Dep was a favorite of the Viet Cong. Betty doesn't need much sleep. She yawns and brags she can get by on four hours a night. Uh oh, looks like that commanding lead just slipped a bit. Betty has now been shown to need 4.25 hours or 18% mandatory downtime. How can this be? The GD unable to keep up with the hd in terms of how long she can work every day.
But, remaining loyal to her Designer, (we fear we must do so, because to do otherwise is to guarantee ourselves a place in the lake of fire reserved for those who don't believe) we strive overcome this major objection our prospective customer has put in our path. Betty might be able to output (I almost wrote put out, but Betty is a nice girl) more product in the shorter period of time she can do work. Let's compare shall we?
Unless you have a logical reason to disagree would not strokes per minute be a good measure of productivity? AS runs at a slow speed because of the quality of stitching. She stills sticks that needle in and draws it out at a rate of 300 strokes per minute. Betty is good, but her best is just over 105 strokes per minute. She can only maintain that rate for an hour or so before she has to rest her wrists. If she gets a cramp she may have to stop for the day to avoid further injury. During the time she is resting and getting treatment for her fatigued parts, AS has gone through several more rolls of cloth.
I could go on, but I think the point is clear. To call God a designer is to denigrate God. To call Him an 'Intelligent' designer denigrates His Intelligence.
There is an old cliche that says you can't rename Chicken poop, Chicken salad. You can't rename creation, design and expect it to be the same thing.
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Wow, a very long post to say exactly the same thing: Because 'life' doesn't work the way you think it should you maintain that it could not have been designed that way...
Nonsense.
BTW, I've never seen a sewing machine designed by God so I would be unable to compare what His design might be with one designed by man. However, life nature, etc, is not a static system with one function to be performed in an established setting such as a sewing machine, thus your analogy is woefully deficient to support your point.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | BTW, I've never seen a sewing machine designed by God so I would be unable to compare what His design might be with one designed by man. |
Oh hey the crux of the argument comes out!
This right here is exactly the problem with saying that life/the Earth/whatever was designed by God.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Wow, a very long post to say exactly the same thing: Because 'life' doesn't work the way you think it should you maintain that it could not have been designed that way...
Nonsense.
BTW, I've never seen a sewing machine designed by God so I would be unable to compare what His design might be with one designed by man. However, life nature, etc, is not a static system with one function to be performed in an established setting such as a sewing machine, thus your analogy is woefully deficient to support your point. |
Over at arn.org you maintain BTW, living systems are more efficient then most known (man made) designs.
So which is true? you either can compare God's creations to known designs or you can't. If you can't compare them then your statement at arn is not true. If you can then your statement here is not true.
So wanna pick another area other than productivity to compare living systems with known designs? Maybe your designer will match up better.
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Bouncer, who are you addressing?
You quote me and then talk about me stating something I've never stated on a website I've never heard of....
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah that turned out interesting. Was pretty easy to find the mistake, some guy going by "JP" over there.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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The Barbarian
Hamster
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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It certainly is true that living systems show no evidence of design. In fact, engineers are now solving complex problems that resist design by simulating evolution.
It turns out that evolution works better than design for complex problems.
God knew what He was doing, after all. |
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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Sorry Rev missed this till now. |
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| RevJP wrote: | Bouncer, who are you addressing?
You quote me and then talk about me stating something I've never stated on a website I've never heard of.... |
It's an odd coincidence. arn.org an ID webwsite has a poster named JP. He posted a reply to a post of mine very similar to this one close to the same time you replied here.
He used the term 'BTW' with no colon ( after it just like you did.
My apologies.
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Not a problem. I actually went to the web address when I saw your post, looked at the front page and left.... it held no interest for me. If I had perused further I probably would have seen why you made such and assumptive error.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Bouncer
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Not a problem. I actually went to the web address when I saw your post, looked at the front page and left.... it held no interest for me. If I had perused further I probably would have seen why you made such and assumptive error. |
LOL
_________________
...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, ... 1 John 4:1
Shouldn't that include the Bible? -- Bouncer
"In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it. " --Mustafa Akyol Islamonline |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 848
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Designed??? I don't think so ahni. |
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| Bouncer wrote: | | 1. No two living systems are alike. |
The underlying dna structure of all biological systems is the same.
There are many sub-systems that are identical throughout the immensity of diverse creatures.
| Bouncer wrote: | | 2. Living systems are overwhelmingly inefficient. |
Biological systems have been designed by God to be energy inefficient.
BTW, they have to be inefficient (if you can't figure out why this is so then, your ignorance or inaptitude proves that you aren't qualified to judge God's ability to design.)
Apparently you assume that energy efficiency is the ultimate criteria which isn't. Especially so in biological systems.
| Bouncer wrote: | | 3. No engineer would keep his or her job if the systems they designed required 25 to 40% downtime for their designs. |
Where have you been all your life?
Take the energy efficient power plants (33%) they are down for months at a time.
A true designer allows time for maintenance.
| Bouncer wrote: | | 4. Replication(reproduction) is inefficient. |
As in not enough offspring?
Call population control and see what they say.
| Bouncer wrote: | | a. Only 25% of Giraffes born reach maturity. |
And thats how it should be given the fallen world (not as originally designed) we inhabit.
God gave great abilities of survival to all creatures.
| Bouncer wrote: | | 5. Replication is imperfect. |
Define imperfect. Or, define perfect. Perfect what?
My point is that you are not aware of the design parameters nor the design requirements which is why you comprehension is so NOT.
| Bouncer wrote: | | No two living systems are alike. |
| Bouncer wrote: | | One does not need a designer unless they want exact copies. |
It is much harder to design a biological system that produces infinite diversity and yet at the same time infinite consistancies also.
God has created a biological system that can't be evolved into anything new.
Joman. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Saying that God had to have designed life as we know it from the ground up is basically saying that God wasn't smart enough to set the universe in motion or to create the capacity in life to change in huge ways over time.
I mean really, what's more impressive? A God that has billions of years of patience and the skill to start it all or a God that could only have started a few thousand years ago?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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