If you cannot love an eternal torment god

rodgertutt

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering (including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78) than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

You can Google up many similar testimonies by typing in
tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES (Google it up)

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism Google up
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinistic).

Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas!

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of TENTMAKER (Google it up), and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 69

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle. He answers the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

You can Google up his answer by typing in ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

45degreeN · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:00 am Post subject:

CS Lewis wrote that Hell was locked from the inside. Meaning that only those who want to be outside of God's presence (forever)will be. I know a few who do and they will not be forced to go to heaven. I don't understand those who claim universal salvation. They would have a God who forces Himself on everyone, which for me is against His character.

But if that is equal to the image from the middle ages of fire and brimstone (and not Biblical) then so be it.

For some one like me who Loves God, being outside His presence would be torture and punishment though.

rodgertutt · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: WHAT GOD’S LOVE IS REALLY LIKE

The Bible says that God is love. Love is not just one of God’s attributes.

God is not just a loving individual. God is love in essence.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong (Arminian) that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering! Or, they deserve to suffer forever (Calvinist), just because they were born into the human race.

Love Divine
by D. Buchanan

“FROM the lips of love's apostle, exiled for love on Patmos' lonely isle, there sounds out in the saying, "God is Love," the most concise and comprehensive utterance in all language, the most sublime declaration of truth by mortals ever heard. These three one-syllable words reveal the character of God and make it to be known that behind things, as the source and fountain-head from which they spring, there throbs the one great heart of infinite, unchanging love.
Although, to finite understanding, life may meanwhile seem a tangled skein, and providence a confusion, yet when all the processes of Love have run their course, then it will be seen that the history of the ages, the story of the race, can be written with one small word, the term of infinite fullness that tells us what God is.
"God is Light" and "God is Love." Light, in passing through a prism, is separated into its component parts and appears as the seven colors of the rainbow. Each separate shade is a manifestation of light, and, although no one color in itself is light, yet without it light would not be what it is. So, too, the invisible love-light of Deity, passing through the prism of divine providence, appears as mercy, as righteousness, as goodness, as power. The operation of each attribute is a manifestation of love, and although no one quality in itself is love, yet without it, love would not be what it is. As the blue is in contrast to the red in the rainbow hues, so righteousness is to mercy in the spectrum of love. When the mercy manifestation of itself accomplishes God's purpose, then mercy is glad that righteousness was not required, for "mercy rejoiceth against judgment." Yet the heart that moves the mercy hand is the same heart that, if need be, moves the judgment hand, and that heart is God, and God is Love.
God loves just because He is Love, yet Love's hope in loving is to create and call forth love; hence Love's victory is love reciprocated, love returned. So it is that Love, mingling mercy with righteousness, moves ever on, longsuffering and kind, but failing never, until at length the creature heart responds in fullness, to love unbounded and divine.
And when, at length, humanity, redeemed, ransomed, transformed by the divine from which it sprang, has thus taken on the likeness of Love's perfect Man, the Man of Galilee and Golgotha, then Love, the Alpha, will likewise have become the Omega of all things, the atmosphere in which we live and move and have our being, and the universe will be flooded with divine affection.”

Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD EBY
for the scriptural evidence that God has both the desire and the ability to save all fallen creature from everything from which they need to be saved.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6845 Location: USA

45degreeN · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:35 am Post subject:

Rodger: I grew up with a preacher/father whose only word about God was His love and I left as soon as I was allowed.

If we isolate God's love to the elimination of all other attributes then we have set ourselves up an Idol and not the God of the Bible.

No doubt God has a great deal of love far more than all the rest of humanity put together, but that is not the defining thing about Him.

IMHO God's almighty power has to be the most defining attribute since without this one none of the rest will be able to work freely. Being in "control" of this power means that He can either choose to use it or choose not to use it and not be imprisoned by human's trying to define Him into some box (like so many try to do for their own agendas.)

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6845 Location: USA

rodgertutt · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: SO MUCH SUFFERING

SO MUCH SUFFERING is caused by the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell, that it gives me great pleasure to guide people to the evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

We agree with fundamentalist Christians that we should not believe things that go against Biblical teaching. We don’t.

I'm 69, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

I myself suffered a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) because of my inability to love an endless-hell god.

If any member or surfer on forums is suffering because they are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God is going to let any creature suffer forever, they can Google up the search engine at the top of the TENTMAKER front page. Just type in a key word or phrase from each argument or scripture passages and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilationist doctrines. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.

Most fundamentalist Christians are not even aware that there are two sides to the argument about what the Bible teaches.

I have exhaustively studied both sides myself. This debate always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.

If your readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then they should keep believing that.

But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

Check out the evidence that the Bible teaches universal
salvation. Google up
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD EBY

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6845 Location: USA

Roger, you've said the same thing, but have given no support, scripturally, for your assertions.

rodgertutt · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: QUESTION TO MODERATOR

Have I post enough messages to post urls yet?

There is a large amount of scriptural evidence in urls showing that a correctly, (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation.

I have already suggested that members can find A LOT of scriptural evidence by typing the following into Google

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD EBY

holly102869 · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:39 am Post subject:

I just really don't get it. Once I have attempted to take my life and did not blame anything on heaven or hell. I have never actually met a person that was killing themself because they were afraid of not being good enough to get to Heaven. I wanted out of this life, because I was week... It was a cop out. I was being selfish and wanted everybody to hurt like I was hurting because they didn't care that I was hurting. Don't justify Susicide because It was not about anything except yourself. God would allow me to do anything I want but their are consequences to everything. Why would we teach our children to be good little boys and girls if they were a universal salvation. If this is true then more and more people are going to do whatever to whomever because their are no consequences. We are all saved..... It doesn't matter folks I will take anything I want and God won't punish me. I can make myself a prostitute God love me still.. You Know God would still love me but,,, I would not love myself or anyone or thing in this world. There it is if I can't love God If I don't seek him out, life will be over. He is not going to force me to be something I choose not to be. If he is like that then I would choose not to follow him. But then I couldn't choose could I. That is not love forcing people to be what they are not. God has to lead by example...

Think about this for just a minute I don't think that God makes you suffer in a firey pit eturnally, but I don't believe in universal salvation. Thrown in the pit yes, burnt yes, forever no, Gone to never know anything of life eturnal, A life full of peace and tranquility, Yes. God punished many people in the Bible and we are all fools to think that we can get away with our sinful nature.

45degreeN · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:46 am Post subject:

I don't think that suicides necessarily go the dark hot place, in case you wondered. Only God knows the pressures we deal with every day and it is not for others to judge us anyway.

rodgertutt

HOW THE BIBLE TEACHES ALL FALLEN CREATURES WILL LOVE GOD

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE by James Coram (online reading). You can Google it up.

Self-righteous people who want to retain some of the glory for themselves for their trusting in Jesus may reject Jim Coram’s writing about what the Bible teaches.

But people who want to give all the glory to God for their trusting in Jesus as their Savior will greatly enjoy and benefit from Jim’s writing and will recognize it as the truth.

The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it. Each chapter is quite long and comprehensive.

The “danger” in preaching the truth resides only in the imagination of the person who doesn’t understand the truth.

The online book “HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE” by James Coram needs no defense. It stands on its own merit.
It has helped many people. It will help many more.

Most comments and questions regarding this book are responded to within the writing itself, for example, “WHAT ARE CORRECT TRANSLATIONS OF THE BIBLE?”

A frequent response to first learning about the existence of this book is,
“You believe the words of men, but we believe the Bible.”
But the actual reading of, “HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE” by James Coram will prove to all readers that JUST THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.

IMHO, "HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE" by James Coram is the most powerful of all of the dozens of books that I have read, the hundreds of tapes that I have listened to, and the many online articles that I have read that show that a correctly, (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation. (I am 69 years old)

In fact, to me it is so powerful that it renders all arguments to the contrary completely irrelevant to the truth that it proves that, by the time God’s plan for the ages of time has been consummated, the universal salvation of all sinful creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, most certainly, will have occurred.

It can be Googled up by typing in HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE

It has seventeen chapters, each chapter having its own highlighted heading followed by a short introduction.
Just click on the highlighted heading and the entire text of that chapter will appear.

Since I have read many writings, the sum total of which probably contain every argument in existence in support of the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation, I am confident that if anyone were to read "HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE" in it's entirety, they would change their mind about their belief that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation.

However, as a friend recently reminded me, one must be disposed of the Ultimate Placer to receive any revelation; it’s all about Sovereign causes & effects. Or as Ralph Waldo Emerson put it, “People only see what they are prepared to see.”

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28

Write to me personally at rodgertutt@sympatico.ca

YLTYLT · Ferret Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 120

Well I read “HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE” and i have heard al these before. They are the same arguements that 5 point calvinist make to prove some are chosen to go to hell and some are chosen to heaven. But this type of reading of the scripture is flawed.

I am only going to give one verse as an example:

rodgertutt

SELF-HELP SALVATION AND PRIDE

By James Coram, director of THE CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN

Some Christians think that the gaining of their salvation is, in part, a human achievement. Other Christians think that the maintaining of their salvation is, in part, a human achievement. Yet other Christians think that both the gaining and the maintaining of their salvation is, in part, a human achievement. Even though it be ever so small, many Christians think that their part (which becomes the most important part) is absolutely necessary for the success of their salvation. God’s part, they think, is not sufficient.

What everyone needs most is a willing heart and a change in their stubborn will. But many Christians think that at that point, just when we need Him the most, God lets us down. They think that He will not grant anyone a willing heart or effect a change in their stubborn will. This is something, they think, that they must supply on their own.

Even if we have been graced to come to Jesus, we tend to suppose that this was thanks to ourselves. Indeed, many seem to become much more proud and self reliant after “conversion” than ever before. And they seek to cover this up through much ill-disguised religious parlance in which it is true that they do give much, but certainly not all the credit to God. For example, “The Lord did it all, after I let Him.” or “I could never be where I am today without His assistance.”

This increase in pride is the result of having been subjected to such an abundance of human-independence teaching in an atmosphere in which it is continuously encouraged and reinforced, verified and justified with much approbation and exaltation.

After all, such believers are sure that they, unlike others, have “made their decision for Christ.” And, they say, this has not occurred in the grace of God as a result of their having been chosen before the disruption of the world (even if the Scriptures do say so), but is the result and is thanks to their very own decision. Though others may far excel them in lesser things, when it comes to what is most important, they think it is obvious that they are superior. They think, “At least I was willing and sufficiently disciplined, for when it mattered the most I did the right thing and the switch got thrown, so people like me will go up to heaven while everyone else will go down to hell.”

Just think of it. Picture this type of self-help salvation and pride. For all eternity (or at least for the ages) they will be able to say, “All those miserable sinners burning in hell could have gone to heaven too. Certainly the work of Christ saved no one at all. It wasn’t supposed to. All it did was make salvation possible. Besides, every one of those sinners deserves to be in everlasting burning, for unlike me, they didn’t do what they should have and could have. And here I am in eternal bliss, perfectly good and perfectly happy, even though billions of my fellow creatures are perfectly miserable and doomed to stay that way forever (or at least for the ages). Yet in the end I only got here myself because of what I did, not because of the sacrifice of Christ. I chose to meet God’s demands for His (so-called) free gift and I did so. I wasn’t given any special grace. It wasn’t any easier for me than for anyone else. It’s too late now anyway so let them burn. Too bad for them, but not for me. I’m happy and so is God. In fact we’re all happy here.”

You see, that’s the ultimate selfishness of that view and that’s what it leads to. One can only avoid boasting in self by truly ceasing to believe things and say things that are inherently of a boastful nature.

It is only the word of the cross that effectively and wisely trains us in this true humility so that “if anyone is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting,” as Paul says. It is an empty gesture to go through the motions of giving all the glory to God, while at the same time continually believing that good decisions and acts are things which ultimately owe their existence to one’s own self, God having but made them possible. May He enlighten us to see truly that it is “in the grace of God that I am what I am.”

After thought. Since the salvation of even one soul is 100% by God’s grace plus nothing, the salvation of all souls will be no problem for God at all according to His sovereign perfect timing for each individual