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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 121
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 Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian (book) |
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I recieved a solicitation from Amazon.com recently for this book:
"Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian" by Anthony Buzzard.
Has anybody read this book? It looks like it was just released in late 2007. If anyone has read this book I'd be interested in your comments, either pro or con. If you could, please cite chapter number and such, as to what it says. I've not yet read it. Thanks. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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If you read the bible, you'll find out the same thing.
Just make sure when you find scriptures that are confusing or contradictory on this subject that you compare your findings to several other translations to be sure it wasn't mis-translated.
I reccommend the Interlinears (Greek & Hebrew) and the NWT.
You can easily compare different translations on BibleGateway and other internet sites.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: The Father/Son/HolySpirit Concept. |
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rufus,
Sorry I have not read the book. Since none who have....have commented. I'd like to touch on a point that another member here at this site brought to my attention.....
| bitterlily wrote: | To suggest that the Father dwells apart from Jesus as a separate person or entity (as the trinity does) instead of dwelling IN Jesus as he proclaimed in many scriptures, is to suggest that Jesus’ Temple (body) was left Desolate (empty of the Spirit of God) like the OT Temples that preceeded him. If you believe that than it’s understandable that you might have a problem praying to an empty Temple. But Jesus is not Empty, he is filled to the fullest with the Spirit Of God (The Father) as this verse clearly states:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:8-9
Did you hear that?
Jesus is not a part of the Godhead as the Trinity Doctrine teaches! The WHOLE Godhead dwells IN JESUS! If you didn’t catch that point, read the verse again. |
Now this is just as small portion of perhaps the best "anti"-trinitarian rational I have ever read. The entire post can be viewed on page 1 of the...'Trinity: Biblically supported?? I say NO WAY!!!' thread.
Now, I myself had never viewed the so-called 'trinity doctrine' as anything other than the biblical/NT-revealed concept of the Father/Son/HolySpirit.
bitterlily's post helped me to understand that not everybody views the so-called 'trinity doctrine', in the same biblical pureness as I do. That was somewhat of a revelation for me. She made me realize that the religious TERM 'trinity' means different things to different people. I myself have always been quite liberal in hearing various explainations of the trinity....holding to the fact that belief in the Trinity:Father/Son/HolySpirit concept was more important than how one attempted to explain it.
Though bitterlily professes to be an anti-trinitarian due to a misleading and man-made teaching of the trinity, she beautifully expresses my understanding (a strictly biblical understanding) of the Father/Son/HolySpirt concept. I, of course, being a professed trinitarian; having a different view of the TERM...'trinity' than she.
So my point is that it may be proper for some to claim that Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian (the title of your referenced book) from a particular view like that of bitterlily's, but it's unbiblical (and thus improper) to say that Jesus did not believe in the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept as outlined in the NT, and really, in the entire Bible.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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The use of human language to try and understand such a profound idea is to beggar the whole question. God is so high and lifted up that only in the language of heaven can the subject even be discussed intelligently using the appropriate words.
All the dogmas from the 1st century til now are only approximations and therefore not reliable for precise understanding. Since they all rely upon our corrupt human language we fail to know for certain and must be happy with it the way it is.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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45degreeN,
Hi, 
I agree the language isn't perfect, however I disagree that the basic concepts that God wanted to communicate to us, about who He is, is clear.
He never communicated that He is 3 persons in one God. What did He say?
(Deuteronomy 6:4) “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
That "one Jehovah" is the Father.
(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him;
Jesus agreed that the Father is the only true God, thus showing Jesus wasn't a trinitarian.
(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
The "dogmas" that developed from over these centuries are not approximations but deviations from the clear truth the Bible contains. You cannot blame the imperfections of a language for the introduction of false ideas. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: |
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The Holy Spirit is NOT even ANOTHER person. None of the Epistles declare it as such in any of the Epistles.
Look here that the Epistles of void of the salutation to the Holy Spirit:
James 1:1
(1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 Peter 1:2
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
1 John 1:3
(3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:7
(7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:3
(3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:3
(3) Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:2
(2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:2
(2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:1
(1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:2
(2) Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 1:1-2
(1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; (2) Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Titus 1:4
(4) To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Philemon 1:3
(3) Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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John 16:13 | Quote: | | But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. |
1Peter 1:10 | Quote: | | Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. |
Various other places:
| Quote: | He speaks--
* Mark 13.11: Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
* Acts 1.16: and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus
* Acts 13.2: While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
* Heb 3.7: So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice,
* Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
* Acts 10.19: While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you.
* Acts 11.12: The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them.
* I Tim 4.1: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits
* Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (6x)
* Rev 14:13: Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
* Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!"
So obviously there is much written about this Holy Spirit and you must just have missed it, or willingly ignored these verses. |
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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No I haven't ignored none of those. None of those are SALUTATIONS. I never said that the Holy Spirit isn't a person. I'm saying it isn't ANOTHER Person. The Holy Spirit is the very "being" of the Father Himself so obviously there is personality to the Holy Spirit but again it isn't ANOTHER Person. You do agree that the Father is Spirit and is Holy, right? So you do agree that the Father IS the HOLY SPIRIT, right?
Paul |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Although the Holy Spirit is at times personified, it is not a person, but power from God to do what ever he wishes. Jesus receives holy spirit from the Father and gives it (pours it out) to the disciples.
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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The problem Tretep is that in multiple places this Holy spirit is referred to as separate from and different from God Almighty. Check out this extract from the Christian think tank
| Quote: | Zech 12.10: "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on ME(emphasis think tank), the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for HIM (emphasis think tank) as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Note:
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YHWH is speaking (He pours out the Spirit).
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YHWH is 'looked upon' by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
*
YHWH is 'pierced' by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
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It switches to a 3rd person, in the middle of the sentence(!) "mourn for HIM"
*
Remember, God the Father has NEVER been seen, nor can be 'pierced'!
*
The verse is understood of Messiah Son of Joseph (the suffering messiah) in the Talmud (Sukk. 52a).
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I am not the world class expert in all things biblical I get many things from one place that you might enjoy reading this think-tank.
www.christian-thinktank.com
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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The problem Tretep is that in multiple places this Holy spirit is referred to as separate from and different from God Almighty. Check out this extract from the Christian think tank
| Quote: | Zech 12.10: "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on ME(emphasis think tank), the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for HIM (emphasis think tank) as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Note:
*
YHWH is speaking (He pours out the Spirit).
*
YHWH is 'looked upon' by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
*
YHWH is 'pierced' by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
*
It switches to a 3rd person, in the middle of the sentence(!) "mourn for HIM"
*
Remember, God the Father has NEVER been seen, nor can be 'pierced'!
*
The verse is understood of Messiah Son of Joseph (the suffering messiah) in the Talmud (Sukk. 52a).
|
I am not the world class expert in all things biblical I get many things from one place that you might enjoy reading this think-tank.
www.christian-thinktank.com
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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(Zechariah 12:10) “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son].
Notice how the pronoun changed from ME to HIM in the translation you posted? "The one" is a translative alternative and fits the pronoun usage.
Although the Holy Spirit is at times personified, it is not a person, but power from God to do what ever he wishes. Jesus receives holy spirit from the Father and gives it (pours it out) to the disciples.
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Although the Holy Spirit is at times personified, it is not a person, but power from God to do what ever he wishes. Jesus receives holy spirit from the Father and gives it (pours it out) to the disciples.
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. |
Scriptures make a distinction between POWER and SPIRIT.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Paul |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | The problem Tretep is that in multiple places this Holy spirit is referred to as separate from and different from God Almighty. Check out this extract from the Christian think tank
| Quote: | Zech 12.10: "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on ME(emphasis think tank), the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for HIM (emphasis think tank) as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Note:
*
YHWH is speaking (He pours out the Spirit).
*
YHWH is 'looked upon' by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
*
YHWH is 'pierced' by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
*
It switches to a 3rd person, in the middle of the sentence(!) "mourn for HIM"
*
Remember, God the Father has NEVER been seen, nor can be 'pierced'!
*
The verse is understood of Messiah Son of Joseph (the suffering messiah) in the Talmud (Sukk. 52a).
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Those verses are a reference to Jesus the Christ. Jesus is a container of the Holy Spirit (The Father) which is why He is said to be "God with us". They did pierce God in that sense since God's Spirit is in the flesh. And to see God means to KNOW God which is why when the disciples asked to see Him Jesus replied that if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father.
Jhn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Paul |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 909
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | (Zechariah 12:10) “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son].
Notice how the pronoun changed from ME to HIM in the translation you posted? "The one" is a translative alternative and fits the pronoun usage.
Although the Holy Spirit is at times personified, it is not a person, but power from God to do what ever he wishes. Jesus receives holy spirit from the Father and gives it (pours it out) to the disciples.
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. |
It is rightly a pronoun because it is referring to a PERONALITY which is that of God the Father in Heaven.
Paul |
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