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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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 Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: McClellan's kiss and tell book |
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For a former presidential spokesman he has certainly given us a reversal in direction.
Note every one of the other and current presidential advisers had the same two talking points 1) This is not the McClellan we knew and 2) this is sad. A tribute to the lock step mind numbing order of the Bush presidency. Given the personal loyalty requirements of positions in the Bush white house I'm surprised that anyone broke ranks.
Personally I hope that Collin Powell can come clean about his speech at the UN and how he lead the UN to believe something was certain when it was far from certain about those so called "WMD's." (Or was he out of the loop also?)
McClellan is scheduled to be on Countdown (MSNBC ) tonight. We just may get an ear full Bushisms. Sadly I'll just have to get it on reruns since I will out of the house at that time.
Where does personal loyalty to the president end and loyalty to the country begin? Maybe we'll find out tonight.
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: McClellan's kiss and tell book |
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| 45degreeN wrote: |
Where does personal loyalty to the president end and loyalty to the country begin? Maybe we'll find out tonight. |
I'm not sure, but given this guy is looking for a job, waits until the last few months of the President's term, and puts out a book (vice talking to a reporter for example)...I'd say his loyalty is to his own personal interests and fortunes...
He's a [inappropriate word] coward.
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: McClellan's kiss and tell book |
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| Pondering wrote: | | 45degreeN wrote: |
Where does personal loyalty to the president end and loyalty to the country begin? Maybe we'll find out tonight. |
I'm not sure, but given this guy is looking for a job, waits until the last few months of the President's term, and puts out a book (vice talking to a reporter for example)...I'd say his loyalty is to his own personal interests and fortunes...
He's a [inappropriate word] coward. |
Amen... a man who trades his loyalty, honesty and integrity for money deserves only disdain... as that is exactly what this fella did.
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: McClellan's kiss and tell book |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | Personally I hope that Collin Powell can come clean about his speech at the UN and how he lead the UN to believe something was certain when it was far from certain about those so called "WMD's." (Or was he out of the loop also?) |
You know... I personally remember listening to that speech.. Part of which was some intercepted audio that went something like:
Hajji... the UN inspectors are coming to your location. You need to move the nerve agent... do you understand?
Those might not have been the exact words... but the audio was a superior telling a subordinate to move the nerve agent. Do you remember that? The audio was not fake… fabricated… or taken out of context… it was part of Saddam’s elaborate plan.
Please... explain how that is misleading. What was certain was that every major intelligence agency in the world thought Saddam had WMD... it wasn't just the US... Bush... it was everyone else 45N... do you understand that? Everyone that was someone in intelligence came to the same conclusions? Saddam created this elaborate scheme to portray that he had WMD to keep Iran from invading... it wasn't Bush... Collin Powel... or anyone else lying or misleading... this is what Saddam intentionally did.
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | You know... I personally remember listening to that speech.. Part of which was some intercepted audio that went something like:
Hajji... the UN inspectors are coming to your location. You need to move the nerve agent... do you understand?
Those might not have been the exact words... but the audio was a superior telling a subordinate to move the nerve agent. Do you remember that? The audio was not fake… fabricated… or taken out of context… it was part of Saddam’s elaborate plan. |
Uh.
Where does a slur for Indians come into this?
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: |
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That little bit of fake intelligence (and we know it was fake now) was provided by an agent named screwball (totally discredited since then).
If Saddam had come to the UN and given a speech where he admitted that he had been given nerve agents by the US and had used them all up (on his own people). Would that have gone over well of everybody?
It seems Trinity is a "true believer" when it comes to the Bush doctrines, nothing that comes out of Bush's mouth is possibly wrong ever.
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | That little bit of fake intelligence (and we know it was fake now) was provided by an agent named screwball (totally discredited since then). |
Could you point to this citation... or am I left to take your word for it?
| Quote: | | It seems Trinity is a "true believer" when it comes to the Bush doctrines, nothing that comes out of Bush's mouth is possibly wrong ever. |
I've found that many quotes people attribute to Bush... concerning the war... are simply wrong. Now, if you would be so kind to cite where it has been proven that this tape was fabricated I'd appreciate it.
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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45degreeN
King Kong
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Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | '60 Minutes' Blames Screwball Iraqi Scientist for Iraq War, Ignoring American Intellectuals
Last night '60 Minutes' did a piece on "Curveball," the Iraqi scientist who fled to Germany in the late 90s and in 2002 provided "intelligence" that Saddam was preparing chemical and biological weapons. Curveball claimed that a dozen technicians had died in an accident at the plant. In the runup to war, former Sec'y of State Colin Powell told the U.N. as much, disgracing himself forever. The plant was said to be an agricultural seed-purification plant; it turned out to be one.
'60 Minutes' takeaway was that Curveball perpetrated one of the most costly "conjobs" in history.
This is like blaming a matchbook for the California wildfires. The U.S. Administration got conned because it wanted to get conned. It wanted war, and was happy to twist intelligence.
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This was broadcast on 60 minutes Early November 07
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RevJP
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Now that was convincing...
It continually amazes me how hindsight is so readily applied to decisions that were made, then intentions and motives are applied to those involved at the time, based on the intents and motives of those engaging in the 'hindsight gymnastics'.
Apparently the Bush administration lied, and the entire intelligence community of the world lied, because 5 years later, a liberal news agency determined their motives from some sort of mind-reading capability.
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | '60 Minutes' Blames Screwball Iraqi Scientist for Iraq War, Ignoring American Intellectuals
Last night '60 Minutes' did a piece on "Curveball," the Iraqi scientist who fled to Germany in the late 90s and in 2002 provided "intelligence" that Saddam was preparing chemical and biological weapons. Curveball claimed that a dozen technicians had died in an accident at the plant. In the runup to war, former Sec'y of State Colin Powell told the U.N. as much, disgracing himself forever. The plant was said to be an agricultural seed-purification plant; it turned out to be one.
'60 Minutes' takeaway was that Curveball perpetrated one of the most costly "conjobs" in history. A whole book was written about this fraud and his unsubstantiated claims about WMD's by LA Times reporter Bob Drogin.
This is like blaming a matchbook for the California wildfires. The U.S. Administration got conned because it wanted to get conned. It wanted war, and was happy to twist intelligence.
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This was broadcast on 60 minutes early November 07.
Colin Powell's personal adviser COl. Wilkerson suggested to him that the information from Curveball was not accurate the day before the speech at the UN. The CIA manager in Europe (where this informant came from) tried unsuccessfully to convince the second in command at the CIA that this informant was not reliable and all his information should not be included in this speech and the white house willfully ignored this contrary advise or rather wanted to go to war regardless.
Unfortunately Colin Powell sealed his future fate by giving this speech simply because he trusted the president who convinced him that it really was OK.
Trinity claimed here that all of the intelligence agencies from around the world knew this information was true and yet our own CIA not only knew it was bogus, but members of the CIA tried to stop him from telling the UN about it.
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | Quote: | '60 Minutes' Blames Screwball Iraqi Scientist for Iraq War, Ignoring American Intellectuals
Last night '60 Minutes' did a piece on "Curveball," the Iraqi scientist who fled to Germany in the late 90s and in 2002 provided "intelligence" that Saddam was preparing chemical and biological weapons. Curveball claimed that a dozen technicians had died in an accident at the plant. In the runup to war, former Sec'y of State Colin Powell told the U.N. as much, disgracing himself forever. The plant was said to be an agricultural seed-purification plant; it turned out to be one.
'60 Minutes' takeaway was that Curveball perpetrated one of the most costly "conjobs" in history.
This is like blaming a matchbook for the California wildfires. The U.S. Administration got conned because it wanted to get conned. It wanted war, and was happy to twist intelligence. |
This was broadcast on 60 minutes Early November 07 |
45... I was specifically talking about the recording... the recording instructing one commander to move the nerve agents in his possession by another commander.
Has that ever been discredited or questioned? If not... then doesn't that alone tell you something?
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
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Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Until you wrote it, I had never heard of it. don't know the source, do you? sounds totally bogus to me. Hearing something over the radio might come form anywhere, and hardly (by itself) a reason for an invasion.
You rely upon this for one hell of a lot without knowing for certain.
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Until you wrote it, I had never heard of it. don't know the source, do you? sounds totally bogus to me. Hearing something over the radio might come form anywhere, and hardly (by itself) a reason for an invasion.
You rely upon this for one hell of a lot without knowing for certain. |
45... I sat there, in my Commander's Office, and watched Powell make his presentation to the UN... I sat there and watched as they played the aforementioned recording... I do know for certain this recording was played and I do know for certain that this recording's authenticity has not been debunked.
Why would we have a recording of two Iraqi Commanders instructing the other to move the nerve agent if there was no nerve agent to move? NO ONE... and this is an unequivocal NO ONE... has ever been able to provide a cogent sensible answer to this question. HERE is the transcript of Powell’s presentation. Go to slides #27 and #28… that is exactly what I’m talking about.
I watched the presentation... I heard the tape... and I saw the interpretation right on the screen of the TV... I provide you with the transcripts to demonstrate to you exactly what I'm talking about… so I ask… why would this Colonel provide this Captain directions to remove/move the nerve agents if there wasn’t any nerve agents? Hmmmmmm?
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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I do remember hearing that the US supplied those nerve agents to Saddam for his war against Iran and he used them not only for that but also against the Kurds.
Problem is, its been 6 years and no nerve agents, where did it go? Or do you subscribe to the conspiracy theories about secretly sending it to Syria? Do you think for a second that we would find it and not let the world know we found it?
About that so called transcript, how is it possible to authenticate it? Radios dont include pictures of the speakers and unless we find the speakers of that message it is only words without context. (could be anybody within range of the radio). Again extremely tenuous offering "as proof" To engage in war one needs incontrovertible proof and this simply is not it.
The simplest explanation is that Bush really wanted war and took whatever he had as proof enough, even if it was known as unreliable.
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RevJP
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Problem is, its been 6 years and no nerve agents, where did it go? Or do you subscribe to the conspiracy theories about secretly sending it to Syria? Do you think for a second that we would find it and not let the world know we found it? |
Two considerations we discussed when looking for the weapons: Saddam never actually had more WMD but went to a great deal of effort to ensure the entire world believed he had them in various forms. Or 2, the weapons are still out there, in the in the millions of square miles of dessert somewhere, and we have not found the person or people that can or will direct us to where to find them.
| Quote: | | About that so called transcript, how is it possible to authenticate it? Radios dont include pictures of the speakers and unless we find the speakers of that message it is only words without context. (could be anybody within range of the radio). Again extremely tenuous offering "as proof" To engage in war one needs incontrovertible proof and this simply is not it. |
I think you are being intentionally obtuse.
You speak of 'conspiracy theory'? Your whole outlook on the war and everything about it is wrapped in a conspiracy theory. The only difference is that you think everything is some evil plot by Bush...
| Quote: | | The simplest explanation is that Bush really wanted war and took whatever he had as proof enough, even if it was known as unreliable. |
Actually the simplest explanation is that you are unhinged.
I stated before that the intel at the time was legitimate, it was discovered by the people on the ground who felt it was legitimate (since I was one of them, I'm pretty sure I know), it was analyzed by intel experts from all over the world's intel community and was accepted as reliable and legitimate, and it was accepted by the powers of government as reliable and legitimate.
It is a virtue of hindsight that we are able to see that either it wasn't good intel as had been originally thought (for various reasons), or that no matter what the outcome, people like you would still call the world a liar and wrap yourself in the "I hate Bush" security blanket.
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