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Trinity and FFT - A Question


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admin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject: Trinity and FFT - A Question Reply with quote
A question for Trinity and FFT - because you guys go round and round so much on here.

Have either of you changed your opinion about anything in the course of discussions? I'm very interested in your replies.
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FFT
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Because of Trinity1 specifically I don't know. I've changed quite a few opinions as a result of participating in the forum, though.
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Trinity1
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Trinity and FFT - A Question Reply with quote
admin wrote:
A question for Trinity and FFT - because you guys go round and round so much on here.
Have either of you changed your opinion about anything in the course of discussions? I'm very interested in your replies.


I believe I have changed my opinion on several minor things... for several reasons... based on facts posted by several people. I think FFT is an extremely intelligent and resourceful young man… a bit misguided, obstinate, and coarse at times… but for the most part he makes you think and you become more aware of many topics, perspectives, and facts because of it.

I have been able to glean, not only on this board, but others, perspectives of issues ranging from the Creation v. Evolution debate, politics, religions, and other topics. Most Christians, prolly 90% of them, wouldn't subject themselves to these discussions because they are either non-confrontational, afraid of looking ignorant, or are afraid they might have their faith shaken. This board provides a good balance of perspectives... unlike you know which board where ratio of evolutionists to creationists runs about 100:1... and you are often times attacked for just saying 'hello'… that allows people to engage in a more reasoned and civil debate.

As far as my opinion of my faith, the Bible, and this debate is concerned, no... it has not changed. I have seen virtually every argument in the world thrown at the Christian faith on these boards and have been able to post replies with confidence defending it... knowing all along, that I'm not that smart. Knowing that I can do this... research the issues, weigh the evidences, arguments, and points, and walk away with my faith strengthened, I believe anyone can.

So, on minor issues, sure... we all learn from differing perspectives and have to adjust our opinions, or construct new understandings of them. However, on the big issue... faith... the existence of God... the fact the He created... just like His word says He did... no... my confidence in my opinions have only grown.

Why do you ask?
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FFT
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well we have been going back and forth with little concession either way for a while now.
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admin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's why I asked.
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RevJP
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It has always been interesting to me that the two can look at the same evidence and have completely different conclusions, and nary a one even considers a paradigm shift...

I know I'm stubborn, but heck, I've changed my views on many things after discussions on this board.
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Scorp
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RevJP wrote:
It has always been interesting to me that the two can look at the same evidence and have completely different conclusions, and nary a one even considers a paradigm shift....


A person who knows what he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt lives in the dark.
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admin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man who stands on toilet seat high on pot.
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Trinity1
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a difference between knowing and believing.

To say 'I know that God exists' is much different than to say 'I believe God exists'. Same is true for most of the debates here over science. We often see people come in and make statements that they 'know that ToE is true' and/or that 'it is no longer a theory, but a fact'... when in fact, it is not. The key to understanding the issue, again – in IMHO – is to first establish what the definition of ToE is… and then proceed. To state that organisms change, and then call that evolution is a whole lot different than to state that all of us share a common ancestor with bacterium.

I'm not purposely setting up a strawman here to make a point, but those who have been on this board and others have continuously seen this... I believe many of the differences occur when definitions are not clear… and what is and what is not creditable is not clear.

Both of these positions are indeed predicated on interpretations of the same evidences. How people perceive these, as JP stated, is where the divergent opinions occur.
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RevJP
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You do have a point Trin...

From my years on here watching these debates I've seen the idea of 'credibility', 'fact', 'theory', etc. roam around like a moving target (kinda like the 'Clinton definition' of sex). Seems to me that for the most part, those things mean something different each time someone wants to make an argument or defend a position.
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Scorp
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
admin wrote:
Man who stands on toilet seat high on pot.


And prolly doesn't aim to please. But, moving on......wize azz.
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Scorp
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Trinity1 wrote:
There is a difference between knowing and believing.

To say 'I know that God exists' is much different than to say 'I believe God exists'. Same is true for most of the debates here over science.
I believe God exists. Which is it for you?

Quote:
We often see people come in and make statements that they 'know that ToE is true' and/or that 'it is no longer a theory, but a fact'... when in fact, it is not.
The actual theory is a fact. But, like a giant puzzle it must be slowly pieced together to eventually get a complete picture.

Quote:
The key to understanding the issue, again – in IMHO – is to first establish what the definition of ToE is… and then proceed.
Evolution is simply the process of change. It simply means that life is not static.

Quote:
To state that organisms change, and then call that evolution is a whole lot different than to state that all of us share a common ancestor with bacterium.
First of all, there is moral ambiguity here. Do you actually think that God created bacteria and considers it too scummy to be made of the same matter as Man? If bacteria is made of the same material as man, what does that tell you about God?

Quote:
I'm not purposely setting up a strawman here to make a point, but those who have been on this board and others have continuously seen this... I believe many of the differences occur when definitions are not clear… and what is and what is not creditable is not clear.
The only folks evolution is not clear to is religious fundamentalists. If it interfers with thier interpretation of the Bible, it throws them.

Quote:
Both of these positions are indeed predicated on interpretations of the same evidences. How people perceive these, as JP stated, is where the divergent opinions occur.
But that divergence is harmless until it is forced into the public classrooms as science. Scientifically, there is no divergence.

Last edited by Scorp on Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FFT
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Trinity1 wrote:
To say 'I know that God exists' is much different than to say 'I believe God exists'. Same is true for most of the debates here over science. We often see people come in and make statements that they 'know that ToE is true' and/or that 'it is no longer a theory, but a fact'... when in fact, it is not.
I agree, to an extent. I take issue whenever anyone says they "believe" in evolution. And yeah, there is a fact of evolution (organisms change over time) and a theory of evolution (how they've changed over time).

As far as I'm concerned, all I know is that the theory of evolution makes more sense to me than any of the other options.

Trinity1 wrote:
To state that organisms change, and then call that evolution is a whole lot different than to state that all of us share a common ancestor with bacterium.
They are both evolution, but there is a problem in that people do equivocate between the two.

Trinity1 wrote:
Both of these positions are indeed predicated on interpretations of the same evidences. How people perceive these, as JP stated, is where the divergent opinions occur.
Agreed.



Scorp wrote:
The actual theory is a fact. But, like a giant puzzle it must be slowly pieced together to eventually get a complete picture.
Ah, no. It's an extremely sound theory, but theories do not magically become facts.

Scorp wrote:
Evolution is simply the process of change. It simply means that life is not static.
This is evolution as fact. Even most creationists agree. But there's a distinction between it and the theory of evolution.
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Scorp
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
FFT wrote:
Scorp wrote:
The actual theory is a fact. But, like a giant puzzle it must be slowly pieced together to eventually get a complete picture.
Ah, no. It's an extremely sound theory, but theories do not magically become facts.


First you say you agree with the definition of evolution as change then you say it's not a fact. Sure it is. Life is not static. Why are you afraid of simply coming out and calling evolution a fact? You only hurt yourself by not admitting what your intelligence tells you is under your nose.

FFT wrote:
Scorp wrote:
Evolution is simply the process of change. It simply means that life is not static.
This is evolution as fact. Even most creationists agree. But there's a distinction between it and the theory of evolution.


Not if you follow the evidence to reach the only conclusion backed by evidence.
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FFT
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scorp wrote:
First you say you agree with the definition of evolution as change then you say it's not a fact.
FFT wrote:
And yeah, there is a fact of evolution (organisms change over time) and a theory of evolution (how they've changed over time).


Scorp wrote:
Sure it is. Life is not static. Why are you afraid of simply coming out and calling evolution a fact?
That organisms change over time is fact (and is the "fact" of evolution). How this has happened in the past is the "theory" of evolution and is not fact. Theories do not become facts just because they're well-supported.

Scorp wrote:
You only hurt yourself by not admitting what your intelligence tells you is under your nose.
You're hurting science by equivocating between the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution.

Scorp wrote:
Not if you follow the evidence to reach the only conclusion backed by evidence.
That doesn't make it fact, that makes it well-supported theory. Theories do not become facts.
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