Paganized Christianity or the gospel changing the world?

Zathrus

Thanks God I typed this out in Word on my computer and saved it!

Groups such as the 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and adherents to writings of authors such as Alexander Hislop and Ralph Woodrow warn us of the dangers of celebrating some of the holidays and celebrations in our society, even ones considered by most to be Christian holidays.
They point out that these holidays and events actually have their roots in pagan holidays and festivals in which false gods were worshipped, sometimes in immoral or violent rituals.

But obviously most of us today do not asssociate anything occultic or pagan with such holidays as Easter or Christmas. The only ones who still seem to are the groups warning us of their pagan origins.

Most of us today do not associate anything lewd or obscene with birthday parties (well, the cake & candles kind anyway). Certainly not with observing a birthday in and of itself. The only ones who see something sinister there are the ones pointing to supposed pagan origins.

So whose conscience is defiled? Whose conscience is seared? We who enjoy celebrating and visiting with families, and remembering the Lord's birth, crucifixion and resurrection? Or those who see evil in it? We who see the good in others, or those who look for evil in others and a sinister purpose behind holidays and birthdays and such?

Is Christianity really facing a grave threat? Is it being infiltrated by dark and sinister forces wanting to undermine our faith by incorporating pagan rituals into the Christian faith?

Or is the Kingdom of God doing what Jesus said it would do - like leaven leavening a lump of dough, transforming everything it touches for good, making the unholy holy, changing our world and our hearts?

Matthew 13:

mtimber · Lion King Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 1216

I think you should be careful when lumping different denominations together...

It could be construed that SDA's don't celebrate birthdays from your post.

That is not the case.

As to the rest of the questions regarding pagan holidays etc...

When Isreal of old apostasized to those cultures and religions around them, do you think that they did that by offering their children to these gods at the first point of insertion.

I think the real question here, is, is there a battle between good and evil.

And does the devil lead us away in small things first?

Of course he does, as history states.

We should not be ignorant of his devices.

Or should we?

Mark
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45degreeN · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:50 am Post subject:

The only real problem I see with these paganized celebrations is that inevitably the young ones will find out about them and begin to ask questions and if we pretend that there is no pagan elements involved we are subject to accusations of hypocrisy. That is simply the truth.

I certainly dont think that simply partying or celebrations are somehow pagan all by themselves just that the symbols used and the timing is pagan in origin.

In the case of Easter v Passover there is a proper celebration with many of the symbols of Christianity contained in Passover and any questions that the inquiring mind of the young will lead to greater appreciation of the resurrection because that is the direction that the available symbols lead.

Whereas the symbols and timing of Easter will tend to drive them away from the resurrection and into doubt since so many of the symbols are pagan. Imagine explaining about why we have fertility symbols contained within the typical easter time celebration to some young growing Christian.

I don't associate myself with the Hyslop and Woodrow issues and certainly don't spread hatred and doubt about those Christians who are ill informed, I just attempt to educate them.

As far as Christmas. Well there is no alternative at that particular time of the year to compare Christmas with. Although Purim is a nice celebration it comes from a Hebrew rebellion and the blessing of the oil in the lamps. Not a "bad" thing but hardly leading to further faith in Christ like passover does.

Given the temptations of the world I guess those celebrations (Christmas and Easter) are hardly the worst things we deal with but I would just prefer that a more integrated approach to my yearly celebrations is used. God laid out His yearly Feast days and my choice would be to understand and follow them instead of some worldly celebrations.
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lone-traveler · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:10 am Post subject:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.

I looked up the word Pagan..kind of runs synonymous with heathen..

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

If we take a holiday which was founded in paganism (or in honour of the unknown God, as seen in the book of acts), and we change that or unveil the true meaning of that paganistic holiday into th spiritual truth of what God has done on earth for man, as his witness to the world..
Is that a good thing or an evil thing?

If God took unclean animals (holidays) and he made them clean, then it must be his will to take those things which are (pagan) or unknown and make known the truth of them.

If I find that eating pork remains a sin to do, then if I eat that which I do not have faith in that God has cleansed, then to me it is sin. But to another who believes that God has cleansed all things and finds no sin in it, then to him it is clean.

The hard part is when we pass judgement on others according to how we ourselves esteem things.
Is it possible for someone who esteems nothing s unclean to not pass judgement on those who do? and vice versa?

Can we accept their unacceptance of it so as not to defile their beliefs and allow them to come to the truth without pressuring or judging them?

It is not whether they can accept us, but rather can we accept each other for understanding we each have at the present time?

If a particular group approves or disapproves of a certain holiday or event and we agree or disagree with their approval or disapproval..
what is the proper action to take?

To those who esteem all things as clean and nothing as unclean, then those are at liberty to partake or refrain from partaking..not for our conscious sake but for the others.
But how do we persuade those who believe something to be unclean that God has cleansed all things and there is nothing unclean in itself?

Someone may say..
this is our custom and we do it such and such..and the other may say..I see..and may be able to enlighten them to a better spiritual understanding of how their customs could "fit" in God's design and in his plan. Thereby not offending any and yet opening a new understanding to them in the light of the gospel.

At one time christmas was called such and such, and it was custom to do this and that..
but now we see and understand how christmas has a place and time in God's plan of salvation.
So Christmas is not unclean in itself, only in the not understanding that God has cleansed all things for himself. and how that every design of man has a purpose towards God's redemption for mankind.

Whether we esteem it as a blessing or a curse has been given to each individual to be fully persuaded in his own mind to decide.
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Zathrus · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:02 am Post subject:

mtimber · Lion King Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 1216

Hello Zathrus Smile

Read your opening post again and you will see how this could be taken the way I presented.

There is no break in the posts to show that SDA's do not celebrate birthdays.

In fact the only group I am aware of that do not celebrate birthdays are the JW's.

Your post does not bring that across.

I just thought that this should be pointed out for clarity.

Mark Smile

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mtimber · Lion King Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 1216

Hi Lone

The two texts you have quoted from Romans, have been taken out of context.

We can often make the mistake of taking our ideas or the ideas of others and applying them to the bible. Finding texts that seem to justify the idea and ignoring all the others that refute it.

The bible should be the standard in its entirety and the ideas should be checked against that standard, not visa versa.

We are warned that Paul says many things that are difficult to understand, so we should not use a text of Paul in isolation to refute 300 other texts that would show that the idea is in fact wrong and a misapplication of scripture.

This is how the Ten Commandments get nailed to the cross, how the Sabbath is done away with and how our dietary needs as God has advised are ignored.

We take a difficult text of Pauls, do not understand or ignore the context, at the same time ignoring all of the other texts that disagree with our "interpretation" of one text of Pauls.

As an example, the idea that God made unclean animals clean, also does not take into account the context the text was presented in.

Would you eat the contents of a hoover bag based on these texts?

I would hope not...

Then why would you eat carrion animals that God clearly made unclean and unfit for food?

These animals have a function that serves to clean up the rubbish, just like a hoover.

Is it not sad that we say our body is a temple of the Lord, a temple for the Holy Spirit.

Then in the next breath say: "If it moves, eat it, and God is ok with that..."

We have to be very careful not to take the context of these verses to imply that God has changed His mind about our health needs...

Pigs eat out of their own faeces.

They also have a worm that infects the human body and many people that think they have arthiritis, in fact have a worm infection that performs the same damage.

You are what you eat...

How is eating natures hoover glorifying God?

Controversial?

Of course, when appetite is challenged, most find this controversial...

So taking a text out of context and ignoring the rest of scripture is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

If you are being encouraged to do this, then you can know it is the work of the devil himself...

Be warned sister, I tell you this in love.

God bless,

Mark
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Zathrus · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:41 am Post subject:

Roster · Big Goldfish Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 66

45,
Why would we be worried about kids finding out that these holidays that are fun to celebrate, consists of no evil but have pagan roots? We should be worried about them wondering why we LIED to them for so many years just for a little fun, not to mention trying to make them be good all year long.

Colossians 3:9 tells us not to lie to anyone.

45degreeN · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:24 am Post subject:

Well Roster that is the whole point

mtimber · Lion King Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 1216

You should have seen the reaction from people when I insisted telling my daughter that Father Christmas was not real.

She came to me and said:

"Daddy, is Father Christmas real, I know you will tell me the truth..."

My reply was:

"No sweetheart, he is a myth..."

People were very offended.

But then I am not to lie about the truth.

Not even "little white lies".

You will find that in the 10 commandments.

Mark
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lone-traveler · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:08 am Post subject:

Hi Mark,

I forget sometimes.."context, context'context"..

It's the principle of it I was getting at.
If you esteem anything as evil or unclean or sinful, and you partake of anything not having faith in it, then to you it is evil, unclean, or sinful.
But to others who KNOW that there is NOTHING unclean of itself and that God has cleansed the world from sin, and he saw EVERYTHING he made and it was GOOD, then to him it is not evil, or unclean, or sinful.

There is nothing "evil or unclean or sinful" concerning Christmas except what we make evil or unclean or sinful in it. Like if you don't go out and buy a hundred gifts that you really can't afford and end up starving your kids in the process, then that is NOT GOOD.
But to celebrate the message of salvation, of God's gift to the world..(HIS GIFT mind you, to us) is GOOD.

So then I esteem consumerism in Christmas as unclean, but Christmas itself as clean.
This is the context and principle in which I speak.

Santa Claus can represent God in that he gives his children spiritual gifts in which to edify one another with.
But MAN has turned Santa Claus into a toy factory..who gives carnal gifts to his children.

So then, is Santa Claus real?

depends on how one esteems him..no?

God Bless You Mark
hugs
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Zathrus · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:10 am Post subject:

If I may clarify and keep this thread on track, the point of the thread is not to challenge or question those who choose not to celebrate Easter or Christmas or whatever. It is entirely fine if you choose not to. I personally have little use for egg-laying rabbits, men in red suits in flying sleighs, etc. Silly stuff. And I don't see the point of presenting these things to little children as any more than harmless make-believe. That's all it is, and I agree with those who say we should not lie to our kids.

My purpose was to challenge not celebrating these holidays and other celebrations at all for the reason that they are "sanitized" pagan festivals. And even more, to challenge the practice of judging others who do celebrate them, on the basis that they're supposedly partaking in or at least paying homage to pagan revelries and denying Christ.
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holly102869 · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:13 am Post subject:

What if we look at this in a different way. Mankind evolved out of paganism into a christian belief system.

For instance Mother Earth into Mother Mary.

Not that I personally believe this, but what if?
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Zathrus · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: