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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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 Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:35 am Post subject: Lineage and the bible |
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I'm thinking about the bible, the creation and the history recorded and it is painfully apparent that the bible does not tell all history for the entire world. Yes the creation account in Genesis does tell of the begining of the whole world but from there the accounts are specific to the lineage and direct contact with God's chosen people - the Israelites. There are other peoples and civilizations which had no direct contact with the Israelites, to which the bible speaks little of, if at all.
The Egyptians we know of only through their enslavement of the Israelites, but not much more of their entire civilation. We know nothing of the North or South Americans, little of the far east, etc.
What brought this to mind is the Flood thread I read recently which told that major races had 'flood' stories in their history, it struck me that an event like the great flood was recognized worldwide, and many have said that it may not have been worldwide - but a localized phenomenon. Affecting only those in the lands of the bible.
oopss, gotta run now, be back to write more on this after I get the little one to school....
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1501
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Lineage and the bible |
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| RevJP wrote: | | oopss, gotta run now, be back to write more on this after I get the little one to school.... |
Just how far away is this school you speak of? 
I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this subject. I had always had it in mind that the reason various cultures had a flood story was because they were all descended from the families of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
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"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Lineage and the bible |
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| RevJP wrote: | I'm thinking about the bible, the creation and the history recorded and it is painfully apparent that the bible does not tell all history for the entire world. Yes the creation account in Genesis does tell of the begining of the whole world but from there the accounts are specific to the lineage and direct contact with God's chosen people - the Israelites. There are other peoples and civilizations which had no direct contact with the Israelites, to which the bible speaks little of, if at all.
The Egyptians we know of only through their enslavement of the Israelites, but not much more of their entire civilation. We know nothing of the North or South Americans, little of the far east, etc.
What brought this to mind is the Flood thread I read recently which told that major races had 'flood' stories in their history, it struck me that an event like the great flood was recognized worldwide, and many have said that it may not have been worldwide - but a localized phenomenon. Affecting only those in the lands of the bible.
oopss, gotta run now, be back to write more on this after I get the little one to school.... |
Sorry but all humans are the descendants of either, Ham, Shem or Japheth. But the bible doesn't concern itself with the lives of anyone unless it affected the lives of the Jews. Nevertheless, the bible does explain the lineage of us all.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6093
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Carico wrote: | | Sorry but all humans are the descendants of either, Ham, Shem or Japheth. |
Only if you believe that there actually was a great flood, which is not evidenced by anything in the actual world. So unless God erased all of the evidence of His destruction of almost all life on Earth in a worldwide flood, it's rather silly to believe there was one. I mean it's been well-known since the 1800s that Genesis 6-9 can't have been a literal account.
I mean the Chinese didn't even notice.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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rufus
Big Hamster
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 96
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
Only if you believe that there actually was a great flood, which is not evidenced by anything in the actual world. |
Not so! Catastrophic Flooding is a process that has been observed. And, can be explained using scientific laws such as those used in Hydraulics. The only difference between smaller floods, which have been observed in recent times, and the giant flood recorded in the bible, is the size, also known as the magnitude of the event.
| FFT wrote: |
So unless God erased all of the evidence of His destruction of almost all life on Earth in a worldwide flood, it's rather silly to believe there was one. |
It is a well established theory that in the past Glaciers covered a much larger area of the earths surface than at present, and that sea levels were much lower. The question then is "at what rate did the former ice masses melt away"? If they melted away rapidly thereby flooding the surface of the earth then there should be evidence of the event. And there is. It's not that there is no evidence, but rather how one interprets the evidence, e.g. were valleys carved out slow or fast? were gravels and boulders deposited slow or fast? did sea levels rise slow or fast? were the mammoths, and other now extinct ice age fauna, buried slow or fast?
| FFT wrote: |
I mean it's been well-known since the 1800s that Genesis 6-9 can't have been a literal account. |
Many Geologists in the 1800s who argued in favor of a large catastrophic flood, such as described in the bible, were not just motivated by religious beliefs. They pointed to landform features that were best explained by catasrophic flooding. They applied the scientific method properly! It was mainly James Hutton and Charles Lyell who argued for non-catastrophic explanations of the same landform features. Hutton and Lyell did not actually discover anything. They just gave a different interpretation of the evidence.
| FFT wrote: |
I mean the Chinese didn't even notice. |
I'm not familiar with the ancient Chinese records, but I know for a fact that many of the ancient Greeks recorded a flood which correspond's to the Hebrew record. The records from ancient India should also be examined. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
Not so! Catastrophic Flooding is a process that has been observed. And, can be explained using scientific laws such as those used in Hydraulics. The only difference between smaller floods, which have been observed in recent times, and the giant flood recorded in the bible, is the size, also known as the magnitude of the event.
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...Except that there literally isn't enough water on the planet for the flood in the Bible to have occurred. Where did the extra water go? Into outer space?
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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rufus
Big Hamster
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 96
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
Where did the extra water go? Into outer space? |
No, the water originated from the ancient ice masses that covered a much larger surface area of the globe than they currently do. The great ice masses extended into northern Europe, Siberia, Canada, and other areas, including mountainous regions . At that time the sea levels were lower, exposing much of the continental shelfs, which are now submerged near the coasts. The great ice masses then melted away. As they melted away the water flowed across the land thereby flooding the land. As the water flowed across the land it made it's way to the ocean, thereby raising the sea level.
So to answer your question "where did the water go"? It went into the oceans/seas.
The difference between the uniformitarian theory on the disintegration of the ancient ice masses, and the catastrophic theory on the disintegration of the ancient ice masses, is the rate at which the ice melted away. If the ice melted away slowly over a long period of time (uniformitarian view) then there is no flooding on a global scale, only isolated regional floods. But if the ice melted away fast in a short period of time (catastrophic view) then we have a giant flood on a global scale.
So, the great ice masses were the source of the great flood waters. The ocean basins are were the water went. And the land masses lie between the two. I should also add that as the water was released from the solid ice it took two forms, liquid (water) and vapor (resulting in a lot of rain). |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
So to answer your question "where did the water go"? It went into the oceans/seas. |
Even if we melted every single last molecule of ice on the entire planet and put it into the oceans, this would not raise the sea levels enough to create anything even approaching the flood in the Bible.
There literally isn't enough water on the Earth for this to happen. This is a scientific fact. For the Biblical flood to have happened, there would have to have been considerably more water on the planet.
So I ask again, where did all of the extra water go?
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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rufus
Big Hamster
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 96
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | rufus wrote: |
So to answer your question "where did the water go"? It went into the oceans/seas. |
Even if we melted every single last molecule of ice on the entire planet and put it into the oceans, this would not raise the sea levels enough to create anything even approaching the flood in the Bible.
There literally isn't enough water on the Earth for this to happen. This is a scientific fact. For the Biblical flood to have happened, there would have to have been considerably more water on the planet.
So I ask again, where did all of the extra water go? |
Try re-reading my previous two posts. Only read them more carefully so as to not misinterpret what I'm actually saying. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
Try re-reading my previous two posts. Only read them more carefully so as to not misinterpret what I'm actually saying. |
The problem with your argument is not that I am misreading it. The problem is that it's scientifically impossible.
| rufus wrote: |
But if the ice melted away fast in a short period of time (catastrophic view) then we have a giant flood on a global scale. |
This simply isn't true. It's scientifically IMPOSSIBLE.
The Bible says (Gen 7:20):
| Quote: | | The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. |
Even if all of the ice on the planets melts, there literally isn't enough water on the entire planet to even come remotely close to covering the Earth's mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.
It's simply impossible. The flood as described in the Bible never happened. Unless, of course, you can show that the Earth used to have a whole lot more water on it, and explain how that water later disappeared.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5150
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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What about the 40 days & nights of rain. If this was all over the world that was a lot of water. Wouldn't you think? 
Nobby
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | What about the 40 days & nights of rain. If this was all over the world that was a lot of water. Wouldn't you think?
Nobby |
Hi Nobby,
The problem is that there isn't enough water on the planet for this to happen. Regardless of whether or not it rains for 40 days and nights, if there isn't enough water to flood the entire planet up to the height of the highest mountain, then there isn't enough water.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5150
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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P123,
No one had ever seen rain before. Don't you see if God can create the earth, He can create rain! All that He needs to cover the earth!
One other thing their earth was much smaller than it is to day. They had never ventured our over the oceans yet.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6093
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: | | Not so! Catastrophic Flooding is a process that has been observed. And, can be explained using scientific laws such as those used in Hydraulics. The only difference between smaller floods, which have been observed in recent times, and the giant flood recorded in the bible, is the size, also known as the magnitude of the event. |
And that while catastrophic floods have been observed both in contemporary times and in the geological record, a worldwide catastrophic flood has not.
Kind of a big difference, that.
| rufus wrote: | | It is a well established theory that in the past Glaciers covered a much larger area of the earths surface than at present, and that sea levels were much lower. The question then is "at what rate did the former ice masses melt away"? If they melted away rapidly thereby flooding the surface of the earth then there should be evidence of the event. And there is. |
Where?
| rufus wrote: | | . It's not that there is no evidence, but rather how one interprets the evidence, e.g. were valleys carved out slow or fast? were gravels and boulders deposited slow or fast? did sea levels rise slow or fast? were the mammoths, and other now extinct ice age fauna, buried slow or fast? |
Ah. In some cases, slow. In others, fast. Geology is a rather mature science, you know. They figured this stuff out already.
(The Grand Canyon was carved out slowly)
Further, the last Ice Age peaked around 11,000 years ago.
| rufus wrote: | | Many Geologists in the 1800s who argued in favor of a large catastrophic flood, such as described in the bible, were not just motivated by religious beliefs. They pointed to landform features that were best explained by catasrophic flooding. |
Of which many exist, certainly.
| rufus wrote: | | They applied the scientific method properly! |
Not if they argued the same for features not best explained by catastrophic flooding.
| rufus wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | I mean the Chinese didn't even notice. |
I'm not familiar with the ancient Chinese records, but I know for a fact that many of the ancient Greeks recorded a flood which correspond's to the Hebrew record. The records from ancient India should also be examined. |
Oh, even the Chinese have a flood myth. Thing is, in theirs the character of Da Yu controlled the flood to prevent total catastrophe. Also the character of Nüwa who repairs after the flood by making people out of the mud. There's some debate, however, as to whether this was wholly their own flood myth or if they were influenced by Abrahamic religions and whatnot.
And anyway, most flood plain-based cultures had flood myths. It's a great way to teach children about the dangers of the wet season.
Problem is, beyond a catastrophic flood and savior figure(s) they have very little in common.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6093
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | P123,
No one had ever seen rain before. |
What?
| Nobby wrote: | | One other thing their earth was much smaller than it is to day. They had never ventured our over the oceans yet. |
Which is why it's more likely just a story about a local flood exaggerated over time.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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