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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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For some reason, the misunderstandings and misinterpretations of evolutionary theory are massive and widespread. I am creating this thread to address this issue.
The purpose here is to explain what evolutionary theory *actually* says. It is *not* to debate whether or not evolution is true. It is purely for the purpose of clearing up what evolutionary theory actually states.
I am doing this because many different creationists here have attacked evolutionary biology for claims which it doesn't even make. This doesn't help anyone, and it doesn't help the truth.
Here are some basic *facts* about mainstream evolutionary theory. In particular, the following are claims which evolutionary theory does *not* make.
1. Evolutionary theory does not say that a creature can morph into a creature from a different species.
2. In fact, evolution does not act on individuals at all. It is not possible for one creature to evolve into another creature during its lifetime.
3. Evolutionary theory does not say that a creature can give birth to a creature from a different species.
4. Evolutionary theory does not say that humans evolved from apes. We and apes have a common ancestor, but that common ancestor was not an ape.
Here are some things which evolutionary theory *does* state:
1. It is possible for a population of one species to evolve into a population of another species.
2. This process takes many generations, usually many thousands of generations.
3. This means that the process is *extremely* slow and gradual. Parents are extremely similar to their offspring and are part of the same species.
I hope that this clears up any confusion that people have about what the theory actually says, and I will add to these lists as necessary.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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daviddale3
Kitten
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 146
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| Quote: | | 1. Evolutionary theory does not say that a creature can morph into a creature from a different species. |
Agreed
| Quote: | | 2. In fact, evolution does not act on individuals at all. It is not possible for one creature to evolve into another creature during its lifetime. |
Agreed, two for two.
| Quote: | | 3. Evolutionary theory does not say that a creature can give birth to a creature from a different species. |
Unless you agree with Richard B. Goldschmidt and the German paleontologist Schindewolf who suggested the idea of the "Hopeful Monster".
| Quote: | 4. Evolutionary theory does not say that humans evolved from apes. We and apes have a common ancestor, but that common ancestor was not an ape.
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True, but I would say that it is what is implied (either knowingly or not) when the theory is taught.
| Quote: | | 1. It is possible for a population of one species to evolve into a population of another species. |
Please define species
| Quote: | | 2. This process takes many generations, usually many thousands of generations. |
Again, only if you reject the hopeful monster theory. By the way, why was this theory proposed to begin with?
| Quote: | | 3. This means that the process is *extremely* slow and gradual. Parents are extremely similar to their offspring and are part of the same species. |
In other words, unfalsifiable.
| Quote: | | I hope that this clears up any confusion that people have about what the theory actually says, and I will add to these lists as necessary. |
Not really. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | 4. Evolutionary theory does not say that humans evolved from apes. We and apes have a common ancestor, but that common ancestor was not an ape. |
See, this is the thing that even people that support evolution get wrong. There's no way that our common ancestor with chimps would not be classed as an ape were it still extant today. It's not, however, so it's not like the theory of evolution claims we descended from a modern ape, but it definitely does say that we're descended from something that we'd classify as an ape were it still around today.
| daviddale3 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | 3. Evolutionary theory does not say that a creature can give birth to a creature from a different species. |
Unless you agree with Richard B. Goldschmidt and the German paleontologist Schindewolf who suggested the idea of the "Hopeful Monster". |
The "hopeful monster" idea fails for exactly the reason that creationists think evolution can't happen in the first place. What would it have to reproduce with?
There is a difference, here, from punctuated equilibrium, however. Punctuated equilibrium is the idea that there is a tendency towards stability. However, many small changes over the course of relatively little time on the evolutionary time scale can add up.
| daviddale3 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | 1. It is possible for a population of one species to evolve into a population of another species. |
Please define species |
A difference between populations greater than simple allele frequencies.
| daviddale3 wrote: | | Again, only if you reject the hopeful monster theory. By the way, why was this theory proposed to begin with? |
Because fossilization is a relatively rare process?
| daviddale3 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | 3. This means that the process is *extremely* slow and gradual. Parents are extremely similar to their offspring and are part of the same species. |
In other words, unfalsifiable. |
There are plenty of ways that this could have been falsified. There remain several. Rabbit in the Precambrian is a classic example.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | For some reason, the misunderstandings and misinterpretations of evolutionary theory are massive and widespread. I am creating this thread to address this issue.
The purpose here is to explain what evolutionary theory *actually* says. It is *not* to debate whether or not evolution is true. It is purely for the purpose of clearing up what evolutionary theory actually states.
I am doing this because many different creationists here have attacked evolutionary biology for claims which it doesn't even make. This doesn't help anyone, and it doesn't help the truth.
Here are some basic *facts* about mainstream evolutionary theory. In particular, the following are claims which evolutionary theory does *not* make.
1. Evolutionary theory does not say that a creature can morph into a creature from a different species.
2. In fact, evolution does not act on individuals at all. It is not possible for one creature to evolve into another creature during its lifetime.
3. Evolutionary theory does not say that a creature can give birth to a creature from a different species.
4. Evolutionary theory does not say that humans evolved from apes. We and apes have a common ancestor, but that common ancestor was not an ape.
Here are some things which evolutionary theory *does* state:
1. It is possible for a population of one species to evolve into a population of another species.
2. This process takes many generations, usually many thousands of generations.
3. This means that the process is *extremely* slow and gradual. Parents are extremely similar to their offspring and are part of the same species.
I hope that this clears up any confusion that people have about what the theory actually says, and I will add to these lists as necessary. |
 Sorry friend, but no population can do what not even one member of the population can do!  A whole population can't evolve into a new species if not even one member is capable of doing that. So since populations CONSIST of individuals, you can't talk about populations without talking about individuals.
So now, since we have shown you why one creature can't turn into another or give birth to another, you have painted yourself into an impossible corner and given another impossible definition of evolution. 
So evolution is a ridiculous myth, every way you look at it; logically, bioligically and historically.
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| Carico wrote: |
Sorry friend, but no population can do what not even one member of the population can do! A whole population can't evolve into a new species if not even one member is capable of doing that. So since populations CONSIST of individuals, you can't talk about populations without talking about individuals.
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You clearly don't understand what evolutionary theory states. This is the whole purpose of this thread.
Evolutionary theory states that individuals don't change into new species. It even states that you can't get a population to change into a new species within a few generations.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a creature to morph into another species. It is also IMPOSSIBLE for a creature to give birth to a creature from a different species. I stated this VERY clearly above.
Evolution works in baby steps, but when you put enough baby steps together, you can get massive differences. Generation 2 is a little bit different from generation 1. Generation 3 is a little bit different from generation 2. Generation 4 is a little bit different from generation 3. .... Generation 100,000 is a little bit different from generation 99,999. AT NO POINT is ANY generation significantly different from its preceding generation, and yet generation 100,000 is SIGNIFICANTLY different from generation 1.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Carico wrote: |
Sorry friend, but no population can do what not even one member of the population can do! A whole population can't evolve into a new species if not even one member is capable of doing that. So since populations CONSIST of individuals, you can't talk about populations without talking about individuals.
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You clearly don't understand what evolutionary theory states. This is the whole purpose of this thread.
Evolutionary theory states that individuals don't change into new species. It even states that you can't get a population to change into a new species within a few generations.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a creature to morph into another species. It is also IMPOSSIBLE for a creature to give birth to a creature from a different species. I stated this VERY clearly above.
Evolution works in baby steps, but when you put enough baby steps together, you can get massive differences. Generation 2 is a little bit different from generation 1. Generation 3 is a little bit different from generation 2. Generation 4 is a little bit different from generation 3. .... Generation 100,000 is a little bit different from generation 99,999. AT NO POINT is ANY generation significantly different from its preceding generation, and yet generation 100,000 is SIGNIFICANTLY different from generation 1. |
Sorry, but it's you who doesn't understand what I said. I said that no population can do what no individual in that population can do. So when you state that no creature can change into another creature whether "over time" or instantly, then you cannot at the same time say that whole populations can do that!! So again, you contradict your own statements.
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| Carico wrote: |
Sorry, but it's you who doesn't understand what I said. |
Oh no, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. It just happens to be totally wrong.
| Carico wrote: |
I said that no population can do what no individual in that population can do. |
This is completely false. I've explained to you EXACTLY how a population can do what no individual can do. Did you even read what I wrote about baby steps and many generations???
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Carico wrote: |
Sorry, but it's you who doesn't understand what I said. |
Oh no, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. It just happens to be totally wrong.
| Carico wrote: |
I said that no population can do what no individual in that population can do. |
This is completely false. I've explained to you EXACTLY how a population can do what no individual can do. Did you even read what I wrote about baby steps and many generations??? |
So if, for example, no human can turn into a giraffe, either over time or instantly, then that means that whole populations of humans can turn into giraffes. Is that correct?  If so, then not only do you need a course on basic logic, you also need a course on basic biology as well because that's what you're saying. Sorry friend, but your arguments aren't even good.
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| Carico wrote: |
So if, for example, no human can turn into a giraffe, either over time or instantly, then that means that whole populations of humans can turn into giraffes. Is that correct? |
Giraffes are a silly example. But yes, no INDIVIDUAL lower primate can turn into a human either over time or instantly, but a population of lower primates can certainly turn into a population of humans, given the right selection pressures and enough time.
What you don't seem to understand is that if you take a snapshot of the population at any time and then take another snapshot of the population within a few generations, the two snapshots are almost identical.
You seem to think that I am saying that it is impossible for a lower primate to turn into a human, but that if you put a bunch of lower primates together, then they suddenly all spontaneously turn into humans. Do you understand that this is not what I am saying?
| Carico wrote: |
If so, then not only do you need a course on basic logic, you also need a course on basic biology as well because that's what you're saying. Sorry friend, but your arguments aren't even good. |
Actually, I taught logic courses in university, and I assure you that there is nothing at all wrong with the logic of what I am saying. If you can point out a logical flaw, then by all means go ahead.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Carico wrote: |
So if, for example, no human can turn into a giraffe, either over time or instantly, then that means that whole populations of humans can turn into giraffes. Is that correct? |
Giraffes are a silly example. But yes, no INDIVIDUAL lower primate can turn into a human either over time or instantly, but a population of lower primates can certainly turn into a population of humans, given the right selection pressures and enough time.
What you don't seem to understand is that if you take a snapshot of the population at any time and then take another snapshot of the population within a few generations, the two snapshots are almost identical.
You seem to think that I am saying that it is impossible for a lower primate to turn into a human, but that if you put a bunch of lower primates together, then they suddenly all spontaneously turn into humans. Do you understand that this is not what I am saying?
| Carico wrote: |
If so, then not only do you need a course on basic logic, you also need a course on basic biology as well because that's what you're saying. Sorry friend, but your arguments aren't even good. |
Actually, I taught logic courses in university, and I assure you that there is nothing at all wrong with the logic of what I am saying. If you can point out a logical flaw, then by all means go ahead. |
Not it isn't a silly example. I'm giving you an example of something that no human can do to try to show you why whole populations can't do what no member of that population can do. So no human can turn into a giraffe, that means that many humans can't turn into giraffes either.
I already pointed out your contradiction which you made again. You're claiming that no primate can turn into a human but that huge populations of primates can turn into humans! That is a BLATANT contradiction that even most children can see! Do you not know what a population consists of? Obviously not. It consists of INDIVIDUALS. But students who are brainwashed to believe that their teacher knows better (and of course they want a good grade from their teacher) will be the last people to question their teacher. nevertheless, your contradiction is so obvious that it's an embarrassment that you don't see it.
So it doesn't do any good to point out your contradictions to you because you'd never see them anyway. Nevertheless, they're as plain as day.
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| Carico wrote: |
You're claiming that no primate can turn into a human but that huge populations of primates can turn into humans! That is a BLATANT contradiction that even most children can see! Do you not know what a population consists of? Obviously not. It consists of INDIVIDUALS. |
Could you please just try to read what I am actually saying rather than what you want it to say?
There is a difference between these two statements:
1. It is possible for a population of primates to evolve into a population of humans over thousands of generations. At no point does any individual primate turn into an individual human.
2. It is possible for a whole bunch of primates to get together and then all spontaneously turn into humans.
You seem to think that I agree with statement # 2. I do not. I have explicitly made it clear that statement # 2 is false. I agree with statement # 1.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Carico wrote: |
You're claiming that no primate can turn into a human but that huge populations of primates can turn into humans! That is a BLATANT contradiction that even most children can see! Do you not know what a population consists of? Obviously not. It consists of INDIVIDUALS. |
Could you please just try to read what I am actually saying rather than what you want it to say?
There is a difference between these two statements:
1. It is possible for a population of primates to evolve into a population of humans over thousands of generations. At no point does any individual primate turn into an individual human.
2. It is possible for a whole bunch of primates to get together and then all spontaneously turn into humans.
You seem to think that I agree with statement # 2. I do not. I have explicitly made it clear that statement # 2 is false. I agree with statement # 1. |
Sorry, friend but you're digging yourself into an even bigger pit that will last throughout eternity.
First of all, what's possible is called science fiction. What happens in reality is called science. And "lower" primates do not turn into humans in reality.
Secondly, since populations consist of individuals, then sorry, no population can do what no individual in that population can do. So you can't at the same time claim that no individual in a species can turn into another species but that many individuals of that same species can turn into another species. That's an oxymoron and a blatant contradiction.
So the theory of evolution doesn't fall into either category; science or science fiction since it's impossible because the truth holds no contradictions.
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
1. It is possible for a population of primates to evolve into a population of humans over thousands of generations. At no point does any individual primate turn into an individual human.
I agree with statement # 1. |
Could you please identify all the intermediary species that are now running around planet earth cohabiting with one another?
If a more sophisticated species cohabits with a less sophisticated species, how does that automatically produce a species even more sophisticated than either, and on and on? |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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And more importantly, what species are humans supposed to evolve into? gods perhaps?
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: What Evolutionary Theory *Actually* States |
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| Carico wrote: |
First of all, what's possible is called science fiction. What happens in reality is called science. And "lower" primates do not turn into humans in reality.
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This is not a debate about whether or not evolution is true. The point of this thread is to explain what evolutionary theory states, regardless of whether or not it is true.
| Carico wrote: |
Secondly, since populations consist of individuals, then sorry, no population can do what no individual in that population can do. So you can't at the same time claim that no individual in a species can turn into another species but that many individuals of that same species can turn into another species. That's an oxymoron and a blatant contradiction. |
I'm about to ask you a question, and I want to make clear that I am not asking it in order to belittle you in any way. This is NOT an insult. Do you have a learning disability? If you do, then please say so because I will try different approaches to explaining things to you. Again, this is not intended to be an insult, so please do not be offended.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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