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pastor2022
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: The Open Way |
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The Open Way
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 14:6
Jesus Christ claimed to be the "way" through which we can come to God. As beings who are alienated from God by our own rebellion, the "here" of our present condition is separated by a great distance from the "there" of fellowship with God. But a "way" is a path or an opening that allows passage, and it is the astounding claim of Jesus Christ to be the opening that allows the passage of sinful human beings to God. Without Him, no such passage would be possible. We would be those "having no hope and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:12).
There is no dodging the fact that the claim of Jesus is a radical claim. It is radical in several ways. First, it is exclusive. "I am the way, the truth, and the life," is what Jesus said. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Either this claim is true or it is not. If it is not, then Jesus is forever disqualified from being a "great moral teacher." If His central claim is false, then we should simply disregard Him as a liar and have no more to do with Him.
Second, Jesus' claim is radical in that it confronts us with the fact that we are not already "with" the Father. This is strong medicine. We are cut off from God despite the very best of our own systems of philosophy and moral endeavor. In Jesus' teaching, there is no sugarcoating of the truth about either the human condition or the impossibility of fixing that condition ourselves.
But third, Jesus claimed that He Himself was the way to God. This is far more than the "instruction" of a religious teacher. Jesus did not simply say that He taught the way to God -- He claimed to be the way. The nature of our problem was such that it could not be rectified by another, more advanced set of religious teachings. Instead, it took the vicarious death of a perfect Personal Being to bridge the gap between our sinfulness and God's justice. Having offered Himself as that sacrifice, Jesus Christ Himself has become the way to God. "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18).
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Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Open Way |
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| pastor2022 wrote: | The Open Way
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 14:6
There is no dodging the fact that the claim of Jesus is a radical claim. It is radical in several ways. First, it is exclusive. "I am the way, the truth, and the life," is what Jesus said. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Either this claim is true or it is not. If it is not, then Jesus is forever disqualified from being a "great moral teacher." If His central claim is false, then we should simply disregard Him as a liar and have no more to do with Him.
.....
But third, Jesus claimed that He Himself was the way to God. This is far more than the "instruction" of a religious teacher. Jesus did not simply say that He taught the way to God -- He claimed to be the way. The nature of our problem was such that it could not be rectified by another, more advanced set of religious teachings. Instead, it took the vicarious death of a perfect Personal Being to bridge the gap between our sinfulness and God's justice. Having offered Himself as that sacrifice, Jesus Christ Himself has become the way to God. "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18). |
Hi P2022,
Thanx again.
Here is my solution to your 1st and 3rd points:
Jesus is God, being the son of God. Joh 1:1 and 14.
God is Love. 1 John 4:8
Therefore, JC is Love.
So whatever Love is is also what JC is.
So since Love is the way, the truth and the life,
John 13:35
JC is the way, the truth and the life.
Is there any difference between
being in Love and being in Christ and being in God
OR
being in God and being in Christ and being in Love?
see 1 John 4:16.
So when JC said He is is the way, he meant Love is the say that He says is the Way.
[We only think JC is liar when we take what he said literally rather than spiritually.
Plus of course, he looks like one. Rom 4:17.
Which is why we have to love liars so that when God and JC look like liars even as they speak the truth in Love, we wd be able to bear that look or appearance. 1 Cor 13:7.]
Therefore,
it is all who go by Love, in whatever religion, that go by JC by going by the way he says is the way. John 13:35.
And true enough,
all those who go by JC,
but disobey JC and hate those who don't go by JC,
are deceived and will deceive many, and are only Xtians in name only.
Matthew 24
4And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying,
I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
...
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Therefore, we we go by JC
when we go by what JC says to go by: Matthew 22:36-40.
We do not go by JC by just going by his name!
What do you think?
Luke 6:
46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
What do you think about my explanation?
alive in and with and by the spirit of Love and respect and so made alive by Jesus,
atoz |
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wilber
Banned
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Amen and thank you both for those posts.
Here in the uk the gospel is not fashionable now even in most 'evangelical' churches. It seems to have been replaced by 12 step programmes and courses as if the death of Christ is in some way deficient.
You have reminded me of that song "Draw me nearer, nearer, nearer blessed Lord...."
wilber
P.S. Pastor2022 I couldn't reply to your last post on the right sort of love 'cos whilst I thought it was true and vital, I feel my love is so far from the love you described.
God bless you both. |
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pastor2022
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Atoz: I think there is a real danger in tryint to "spiritualize" everything that Jesus said. When Jesus said that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, in the Greek, it is literally the "one and only Way", the "one and only Truth", and the "one and only Life." Now, either He meant what He said and that is Truth, or it is not. You cannot "spiritualize" that away to say that there are "other" ways, truths, or lifes that lead us to God as Jesus said He does. Remember, He said "no one comes to the Father but by me." To equate Jesus with "love" and thereby say if you have "love" with just any definition of "love" then you come into relationship with God, is false. I agree that it is not necessarily by a "name" but the "name" of Jesus as I understand it and believe it refers to His authority and person. Does it encompass the Love of God, of course. But it entails much. It also includes all the attributes of God. That, of course, gets into Christology (which you and I may agree or disagree upon).
I agree that we are to follow Jesus' commandments as Christians. Ephesians 2:8-10 (YLT)8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift, 9 not of works, that no one may boast; 10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
I hope I addressed your question. If not, please let me know. God bless.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| wilber wrote: | Amen and thank you both for those posts.
Here in the uk the gospel is not fashionable now even in most 'evangelical' churches. It seems to have been replaced by 12 step programmes and courses as if the death of Christ is in some way deficient.
You have reminded me of that song "Draw me nearer, nearer, nearer blessed Lord...."
wilber
P.S. Pastor2022 I couldn't reply to your last post on the right sort of love 'cos whilst I thought it was true and vital, I feel my love is so far from the love you described.
God bless you both. |
Wilber:
Thank you. I am afraid that the Gospel is "falling upon hard times" even here in America as well. There seems to be a rise in a "feel good" gospel here at the expense of sound Biblical doctrine.
As far as your own love being so far from being the love described in a previous post, I, too, feel that my own love falls short many times. It is something that I strive for and attempt to express more readily on a daily basis. I have had to learn (over the years and through many experiences) that genuine agape love is not all about emotion or feeling (although that plays a part) but about what I do in my daily life. I seek to express that love in how I minister to those in my congregation, to those that I come into daily contact with, to my family and hopefully, even here! Don't get discouraged if you think you don't "measure up." Remember, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened. God bless.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| pastor2022 wrote: | Atoz: I think there is a real danger in tryint to "spiritualize" everything that Jesus said. When Jesus said that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, in the Greek, it is literally the "one and only Way", the "one and only Truth", and the "one and only Life." Now, either He meant what He said and that is Truth, or it is not. You cannot "spiritualize" that away to say that there are "other" ways, truths, or lifes that lead us to God as Jesus said He does. Remember, He said "no one comes to the Father but by me." To equate Jesus with "love" and thereby say if you have "love" with just any definition of "love" then you come into relationship with God, is false. I agree that it is not necessarily by a "name" but the "name" of Jesus as I understand it and believe it refers to His authority and person. Does it encompass the Love of God, of course. But it entails much. It also includes all the attributes of God. That, of course, gets into Christology (which you and I may agree or disagree upon).
I agree that we are to follow Jesus' commandments as Christians. Ephesians 2:8-10 (YLT)8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift, 9 not of works, that no one may boast; 10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
I hope I addressed your question. If not, please let me know. God bless. |
Thanx, P2022!
So please help me.
Maybe I need to have munderstanding more anchored in Christ.
How can I come in the name of Jesus and still deceive many?
Matthew 24:
4And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name,
saying,
I am Christ;
and shall deceive many.
Matthew 7:
21Not every one that saith unto me,
Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What is or could be the sin in Jesus' name?
And how can I come in the name of Love and still deceive any?
John 13:
35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1 Corinthians 13
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not Love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Love, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not Love, it profiteth me nothing.
What is or could be the sin in Love's name?
Thanks is advance, P2022.
with all Love and R,
atoz |
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pastor2022
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Atoz: Sorry for my "denseness" in not understanding your intent. To be able to "love" I must first have God's love, agreed? Therefore, to have God's love and express it as quoted in the scriptures you cited, I must have a relationship with God through grace through faith based upon Jesus as He stated in the OP I gave. Now, when Jesus says "Depart from me I never knew you" was He speaking of knowledge or relationship? The context is relationship. Remember, He said, "Not everyone who says unto me 'Lord, Lord..." Just because I call myself a Christian doesn't make me one no matter how sincere I may feel. I can do all the things according to I COR 13 but if I don't have God's LOVE residing in me, they will not be based upon God's agape love and will not have eternal consequences. They may be good temporal, physical things to do, but not eternal, spiritual things to do. Is that clear? God bless.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Hi Pastor2022,
Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life.
There is only one way we can come to God and that is by faith.
One must believe that he is.
Maybe Jesus IS faith. His whole life is based on faith, his walk is faith based, his works faith based.
In the boof of revelation we are told that Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy..so..
Jesus is the prophecy of faith being made manifest in the flesh.
He came to demonstrate how to live by faith in order to please God.
Maybe Jesus IS faith..living, alive, walking, talking..prophecy fulfilled.
The spirit of faith in man showing itself to us in the flesh.
Faith says, I am the way, the truth and the life..
And this faith was given the name Jesus..
maybe..
Hugs
lone |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| pastor2022 wrote: | | Atoz: Sorry for my "denseness" in not understanding your intent. To be able to "love" I must first have God's love, agreed? Therefore, to have God's love and express it as quoted in the scriptures you cited, I must have a relationship with God through grace through faith based upon Jesus as He stated in the OP I gave. Now, when Jesus says "Depart from me I never knew you" was He speaking of knowledge or relationship? The context is relationship. Remember, He said, "Not everyone who says unto me 'Lord, Lord..." Just because I call myself a Christian doesn't make me one no matter how sincere I may feel. I can do all the things according to I COR 13 but if I don't have God's LOVE residing in me, they will not be based upon God's agape love and will not have eternal consequences. They may be good temporal, physical things to do, but not eternal, spiritual things to do. Is that clear? God bless. |
Yes!
So that must apply to the physical literal temporal name Jesus.
See?
And therefore, it is without spiritual eternal Love that JC's name is also a waste and unprofitable.
So therefore, only Love makes JC's name work since JC's real name and purpose is Love.
Therefore, what JC was saying in John 14:6 has to mean I am the Way
because I say
Love is the way!
So people who did not want to go all the way with Love used JC's name as a sub to avoid loving all the way in spirit.
Then that explains John 6:44:
No man can to LOVE and so to JC and to KNOW JC except the father draw him!
And one guess as to HOW and with WHAT the father draws!
See Jer 31:3 for answer.
So we end up with1 John 4:
7Beloved, let us love one another:
for love is of God;
and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not [not he that uses JC's lieteral name]
knoweth not God; for God is love.
So to me, Love is the way to JC.
And Love is the way to God:
JC says that
no one can come to the father except thru JC, Mt 11:27
while also saying
no one can to JC except thru the father! John 6:44
John 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 11:
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father:
and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son,
and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Hmmmmmmmmmm
There is some humor in that!smile
The only solution is that to get to both God and JC, we have to go thru Love, which then ties it all together.
What do you think?
with the Density of Love that makes all other densenesses light and floatable, smile
atoz |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi Pastor2022,
Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life.
There is only one way we can come to God and that is by faith.
One must believe that he is.
Maybe Jesus IS faith. His whole life is based on faith, his walk is faith based, his works faith based.
In the boof of revelation we are told that Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy..so..
Jesus is the prophecy of faith being made manifest in the flesh.
He came to demonstrate how to live by faith in order to please God.
Maybe Jesus IS faith..living, alive, walking, talking..prophecy fulfilled.
The spirit of faith in man showing itself to us in the flesh.
Faith says, I am the way, the truth and the life..
And this faith was given the name Jesus..
maybe..
Hugs
lone |
Lone:
I think I see where you're going with this and I agree up to a point (I think  ). Yes, Jesus exemplified living by faith and points us to how to live by faith. It is your last statement that somewhat confuses me, to wit, "And this faith was given the name Jesus..." I'm not sure exactly what you're meaning here. If what you're saying is that saving faith is in Jesus alone, I agree. If you're saying that faith exercised in Jesus, coming from God is what brings us into relationship with God, I agree. Maybe I'm not following you here. If not, please let me know. Keep safe if ya'll are still on the road. If you're back home, have you tried the Cajun blackened salmon yet? God bless.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Atoz:
I believe that you are right in that what ties it together is God's love demonstrated to us in while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Why would He do that? Because we were worthy or deserved it? No...because He first loved us and gave Himself for us. But in that giving of Himself and demonstrating the greatest love ever known, the offering of love can be either accepted or rejected, taken or refused, received and reciprocated or neglected and spurned. Yet, when we appropriate and return that Love we experience life and that abundantly! God bless.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi Pastor2022,
Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life.
There is only one way we can come to God and that is by faith.
One must believe that he is.
Maybe Jesus IS faith. His whole life is based on faith, his walk is faith based, his works faith based.
In the boof of revelation we are told that Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy..so..
Jesus is the prophecy of faith being made manifest in the flesh.
He came to demonstrate how to live by faith in order to please God.
Maybe Jesus IS faith..living, alive, walking, talking..prophecy fulfilled.
The spirit of faith in man showing itself to us in the flesh.
Faith says, I am the way, the truth and the life..
And this faith was given the name Jesus..
maybe..
Hugs
lone |
Great, LT!
That's is how I translate that too: Love which is the testimony of JC is the spirit of prophecy!
Plus of course, all faith works by Love. Gal 5:6.
wit the Hug of Love,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| pastor2022 wrote: | Atoz:
I believe that you are right in that what ties it together is God's love demonstrated to us in while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Why would He do that? Because we were worthy or deserved it? No...because He first loved us and gave Himself for us. But in that giving of Himself and demonstrating the greatest love ever known, the offering of love can be either accepted or rejected, taken or refused, received and reciprocated or neglected and spurned. Yet, when we appropriate and return that Love we experience life and that abundantly! God bless. |
Thanx, P2022.
If I am right, then you are right too!smile
with Love,
atoz |
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