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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: The Chauvinism of Religion and Humility of Science |
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Many of the religions from around the world are extremely chauvinistic and arrogant in the sense that their lore contains all sorts of stories which are designed to make people feel that they are special and important.
There are many examples of this:
1. The Earth is at the center of the universe with everything revolving around us.
2. God created the Earth and all of the animals for humans.
3. God created humans specially in his own image.
And so on.
Science has proved that we aren't at the center of our solar system, let alone our galaxy or the universe. It has shown that we don't live in a special time; the universe is about 15 billion years old, the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and we have only been around for a couple of hundred thousand years.
Einstein showed that we don't even inhabit a preferred frame of reference, and Darwin showed that we were not created in some special way, but rather that we were created by the exact same biological processes from which all life on Earth came.
Astronomy shows us how vast our entire universe is and that we live on an insignificant speck of dust in an insignificant solar system in an insignificant galaxy.
Religion is all about feeding the ego and making people feel like they are special, so of course it's going to have some emotional appeal. By contrast, science teaches us exactly how insignificant we are and that we should be humble.
If more world leaders got their world viewpoint from science rather than chauvinistic religions, they wouldn't be in the "I'm special and better than you.", mindset, and people would probably treat each other a lot better.
Edit: Spelling
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.
Last edited by P1234567890 on Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Re: The Chauvenism of Religion and Humility of Science |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
.....
Religion is all about feeding the ego and making people feel like they are special, so of course it's going to have some emotional appeal.
By contrast, science teaches us exactly how insignificant we are and that we should be humble.
If more world leaders got their world viewpoint from science rather than chauvenistic religions, they wouldn't be in the "I'm special and better than you.", mindset, and people would probably treat each other a lot better. |
atoz:
Thank you for this thread, P123.
First off, excellent!smile
That bad mindset for any ego or word is the key problem in all fields of human endeavour.
Only problem:
You are defeating the whole purpose of your own premise by still mind-unsettlingly propounding:
Science & I are special and better than Religion and you because Science & I am humble,
and
Religion and you are unspecial and worse than Science and me because Religion and you are proud.
2nd off, that shd be 'chauvinism.'
More later.
with my mind set on Lovego for all words,
so that at all times
I am both special & unspecial,
with my mind never ever set on Hatego for any word,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Re: The Chauvenism of Religion and Humility of Science |
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| atoz wrote: |
You are defeating the whole purpose of your own premise by still mind-unsettlingly propounding:
Science & I are special and better than Religion and you because Science & I am humble,
and
Religion and you are unspecial and worse than Science and me because Religion and you are proud. |
No, not really. I'm trying to point out errors which people make in their reasoning. I'm not saying that I'm better than religious people.
But let's assume for a second that you're right and that I'm a total evil hypocrite. Let's say I'm the Hitler of this forum. Hitler comes up to you and says that you should eat your vegetables and that they're good for you. Are vegetables suddenly unhealthy for you because it was Hitler who told you otherwise?
Truth and facts are independent of the messenger who reports them to you. So it really doesn't matter if you think I'm an evil hypocrite. That has absolutely no bearing on my arguments. If you don't like me, then just pretend that what I'm typing came from someone else.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: The Chauvenism of Religion and Humility of Science |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
.....
No, not really. I'm trying to point out errors which people make in their reasoning.
I'm not saying that I'm better than religious people.
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atoz: ok. So what did you mean by this?:
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Religion is all about feeding the ego and making people feel like they are special, so of course it's going to have some emotional appeal. By contrast, science teaches us exactly how insignificant we are and that we should be humble.
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[atoz' bold]
Since you say science is no better [and therefore no worse] than religion,
did you mean that religion is proud of its pride,
while science is proud of its humility?
I would have simply said that, to prove the equality of bad in both religion and science, the attitude of Hatred and Disrespect in each for itself and for the other as itself is the problem common to each.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
But let's assume for a second that you're right and that I'm a total evil hypocrite.
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atoz: Let's be accurate: You are only an evil hypocrite because you hate evil hypocrites!
see?
I am an evil hypocrite too!---but I LOVE myself as an evil hypocrite so I can love you as one and so GET RID of the real problem: The evil of Hatred for evil hypocrites!
see?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Let's say I'm the Hitler of this forum.
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ato: Which Hitler hates himself as me and hates me as himself.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Hitler comes up to you and says that you should eat your vegetables and that they're good for you.
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atoz: So Hitler, in Hate of himself as me and so in hate of me as himself, comes up to me and says IN HATE of me that I shd eat my veggies and that they are good for me.
Right off,
in Love of him and my veggies, which I know are good for me, I am not going to eat those veggies he gives me!
With his Poison of Hate for me, he may have poisoned them with arsenic.
| P1234567890 wrote: | Are vegetables suddenly unhealthy for you because it was Hitler who told you otherwise?
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atoz: No, suddenly, veggies are NOT unhealthy for me just because Hitler is the one who tells me theya re healthy, ]b]since I love and respect him anyway![/b]
BUT because I know that Hitler hates me,
those specific veggies I am NOT going to eat until I have em scanned first in order to verify that my distrust is unverified.
see?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Truth and facts are independent of the messenger who reports them to you.
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atoz: P123, that is where you repeatedly make your mistake: that is why and how there were INQUISITIONS!The truth and facts are NOT ONLY independent of who reports them HOW!
sigh
The truth told with Hate-intent
beats any lie Hitler can invent!
Wm Blake
The truth spoken in hatred is a lie!
Why?
How?
Simply because the bigger truth, the MAJOR is WHAT WORDS we see the truth and facts as!
The facts and truth are the MINOR truths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And BIGGER than the MAJOR truths is THE TRUTH OF LOVE & RESPECT FOR ALL MAJOR TRUTHS AND LIES, ALL TRUTHERS AND LIARS, AND FOR ALL MINOR TRUTHS AND LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And P123,
that is very hard for you because you do NOT want, you do NOT Know HOW to, no one has ever trained you to tell the minor truths in the greater truth of Love NOR tell the MAJOR truths in that greater truth of Love!
So like me when i was a teen, you tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, especially the painful truths--- in a hateful attitude since you hate pain--- since when you are right, everybody else is wrong and you hate being wrong and hate others who are wrong---and then you wonder what's all the fuss about: why do people hate my guts just for telling the truth?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
So it really doesn't matter if you think I'm an evil hypocrite.
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atoz: U are just fooling yourself!
U do NOT want it to matter so you cd go ahead justified to hating others by hating yourself as an evil hyppie!
Sorry!
I love you as an evil hypocrite!
And until you do too love yourslef as an evil hypocrite,
all your minor truths are highly suspect,
and
all your major truths are highly suspect,
simply because
all your minors & majors come packed in the wrapping of Hate & Disrespect---so that even when what you say is true, you will get NO credit for it, since you forget that your attitude is so stinking to high heaven and talking so loud, no one can nor wants to hear what else you are saying!
Fortunately, you have run into me: who will love and respect you anyway.
BUT even then, all my L&R are wasted on you since you can NOT accept nor receive it since you do NOT think you deserve that kind of L&R!
Fortunately, the Universal Constant of my Love & Respect means that I still have 100% L&R even after I give all away, and means that, like the Sun, I have L&R to burn!
| P1234567890 wrote: |
That has absolutely no bearing on my arguments.
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atoz: Same comment as above.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
If you don't like me,...
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atoz: There it is! U want me and others to hate you so you can justify hating yourself by which self-hatred you justify hating others when you tell your MINOR truths!
Sorry!
Not gonna work.
I love you, bro!smile
U remind me of my mom when i was kid. God bless her, she too did not know better:
If you don't like ocra, fine,
as long as you eat what I ocra I give you!
What did my mom forget?
No body is gonna eat or believe what they are allowed to hate, ---in your case, when what they are gonna believe means something else hateful to them!
sigh
How long you gonna wait?
Till hence freezes over ain't gonna be long enough!smile
| P1234567890 wrote: |
.....then just pretend that what I'm typing came from someone else. |
atoz: Just pretend it's some body else who is loved, right?
sigh
Exactly!
So you'd prefer to hate yourself and be ignored rather than love yourself and others and be credited just so you can hate others?
That's sincerely insane, P123!
That hatred is the Error in your reasoning!
To be clear:
you are in error in your reasoning by hating yourself as in error and so in also hating others who are in error in their reasoning as you are.
Yes, hatred of yourself as any word is the Insane Attitude that leads to insanity when the insane is again re-hated.
Sanity and being Inerrant in your reasoning
is
loving yourself as in error and as inerrant
so you wd love and respect as yourself all others who are in error.
To hate yourself as errant is the your first error!
Ok?
To love yourself as errant and as inerrant is your first correct.
Hopefully, this post from yourself reveals you to you, P123.
Loving yourself is of NO benefit to me: I am already loving me 100%.
This is all for you...when ever you want to take it up for yourself.
There is so much more in your post.
Maybe I'll revisit later.
with all Love and Respect,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Re: The Chauvenism of Religion and Humility of Science |
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| atoz wrote: |
Since you say science is no better [and therefore no worse] than religion, |
I never said anything of the sort. Science is better than religion at a whole bunch of things!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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wilber
Banned
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Is the height of arrogance to dismiss, within the environment which we inhabit, the possibility of a higher intelligence than ourselves?
wilber |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| wilber wrote: | | Is the height of arrogance to dismiss, within the environment which we inhabit, the possibility of a higher intelligence than ourselves? |
I'm not dismissing the possibility of a higher intelligence. In fact, I think that the universe is probably filled with life which is much more intelligent than us.
What I *am* dismissing is the supernatural, and especially the conceited and superstitious notions of God which scientifically ignorant people came up with thousands of years ago. For some reason we still cling to these quaint, provincial notions.
In fact, I'm not just dismissing it, but I'm actively saying that it's harmful because it gets in the way of true progress and understanding. Religion has a proud tradition of slowing science down. Just look at Galileo. Look at 'intelligent design' in the United States.
Here's a factoid from Carl Sagan's book, Pale Blue Dot:
| Quote: | In a 1954 survey in the United States, 75 percent of people were willing to state that the sun is not alive; in 1989, only 30 percent of people would support such a proposition.
On whether an car tire can feel anything, 90 percent of respondents denied it emotions in 1954, but only 73 percent in 1989. |
In other words, we've been regressing. And who do you think is to blame for America's downhill slide in the sciences??? It sure as heck isn't the scientists!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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wilber
Banned
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I'm not dismissing the possibility of a higher intelligence. In fact, I think that the universe is probably filled with life which is much more intelligent than us.
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But that's why I put 'within our environment'. Our environment does not include distant galaxies light years through the vacuum of space.
Doesn't an atheist make man the measure of all things? Isn't this more arrogant than allowing for the possibility that there is something 'bigger' than ourselves (possibly most americans p12  )
wilber |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| wilber wrote: |
Isn't this more arrogant than allowing for the possibility that there is something 'bigger' than ourselves (possibly most americans p12 ) |
No, because this something bigger than ourselves created man separate and special and cares intensely about every little thing every single man (who, according to the Abrahamic religions at least, was given dominion over his environment) does or does not do. Religion puffs up man's perception of himself. Atheism, on the other hand, takes away that starring role on that center stage.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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wilber
Banned
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No, because this something bigger than ourselves created man separate and special and cares intensely about every little thing every single man ......... does or does not do. |
Every religion? A sweeping generalisation.
But, as you mention it: if you had the chance to save the life of a human at the expense of an animal's are you saying you wouldn't?
I just don't follow your logic.
For a spiritual person, there is a life higher than him/herself.
For an atheist, there is not (speaking generally of 'humankind').
wilber |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| wilber wrote: |
Every religion? A sweeping generalisation. |
Well, maybe not Hinduism. Earlier in my post, however, I did mention Abrahamic religion.
| wilber wrote: |
But, as you mention it: if you had the chance to save the life of a human at the expense of an animal's are you saying you wouldn't?
I just don't follow your logic. |
You mean you don't follow the logic you are putting into my mouth.
Even in nature, species tend to favour other members of their own over members of other species. There's nothing special about humans in this regard (although I've heard of people killing people over pets, which seems to be the opposite of what you've implied).
| wilber wrote: |
For a spiritual person, there is a life higher than him/herself. |
Wow, speaking of sweeping generalizations...
Think Buddhism.
| wilber wrote: |
For an atheist, there is not (speaking generally of 'humankind'). |
Spoken like a person who thinks of life as a hierarchy. You seem to think of atheism as removing God from the top rung of a ladder.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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wilber
Banned
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 581
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You mean you don't follow the logic you are putting into my mouth.
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I have put no words into your mouth. I simply asked you a question. I thought the answer might clarify for me what you are trying to say.
| Quote: | Wow, speaking of sweeping generalizations...
Think Buddhism.
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Yes. Please do.
The Budha. The enlightened one.
You have not answered my question.
There is no point continuing. I have no interest in exchanging insults. I am here to learn.
Go in peace.
wilber |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| wilber wrote: |
But, as you mention it: if you had the chance to save the life of a human at the expense of an animal's are you saying you wouldn't? |
It depends on the human and it depends on the animal. I can easily picture scenarios in which I'd sacrifice a human life to save an animal.
For example, let's say there's some war criminal in prison, and I am told that I *have* to choose to kill him or kill some animal which is endangered, let's say a Southern Bluefin tuna.
It would be much better to kill him than the endangered tuna.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: The Chauvenism of Religion and Humility of Science |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
| atoz wrote: |
Since you say science is no better [and therefore no worse] than religion, |
I never said anything of the sort. Science is better than religion at a whole bunch of things! |
atoz: hmmmmmmmm
So what did you mean to say here when you said this:
| P1234567890 wrote: | | I'm not saying that I'm better than religious people. |
That you are just as good and no better than religious people?
Why? Because science is just as good & no better than religion?
That religious people are just as good & no better than you are?
Or, people are just as good and no better than you are?
Or, religious people are just as good and no better than you are as a scientist?
Curious and enquiring minds want to know!smile
with Love and R that makes me better than, as good as and less than you, smile
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| wilber wrote: |
Doesn't an atheist make man the measure of all things? Isn't this more arrogant than allowing for the possibility that there is something 'bigger' than ourselves (possibly most americans p12 ) |
I think there are plenty of things bigger than me. I just don't think that a fictitious and contradictory entity that some scientifically ignorant people invented thousands of years ago is one of them.
You seem to somehow equate atheism with arrogance and immorality, and this just isn't accurate. As far as I can tell, the best set of morals out there happens to be a set of atheistic morals.
Christians are promised treasures in heaven if they behave well and eternal damnation in hellfire if they behave badly. Other religions promise reincarnation as something better if you live a good life, and reincarnation as something worse if you live a bad one.
When I perform good deeds, I don't do them because I'll be rewarded, and when I avoid evil deeds, I don't do so to avoid punishment. I do good and avoid evil because it's the right thing to do.
Religious morality is fundamentally based on bribery and threat, and that's very bad. I'm sure that *some* atheists are bad people, but I claim that any righteous system of morality must be fundamentally atheistic.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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