devil and trinity

Adondai · Not So Newbie Joined: 26 Dec 2007 Posts: 6

Just wondering if how many others out there who reject the concepts of a trinity, devil and immortal souls?

Actually... could someone explain where the idea that the devil possessed the serpent comes from?

saintmichaeldefendthem · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:13 am Post subject:

This is what's so heartbreaking about the Protestant tradition. Even the pieces of truth they once possessed are sifting through their fingers like sand. There is a movement gaining strength to reject the truth and revive ancient refuted heresies.

The serpent's connection to the devil is a solid one, for both have the exact traits and mission. Saying that the serpent is not the devil shows ignorance of Scripture. There is only one enemy of mankind, and as Jesus says, Satan does not cast out Satan, his house is unified in opposition to God. The Serpent being the enemy of mankind is revealed by what he does, and the curse that God put on the Serpent is reiterated:

Isa 65:25 -
The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the Lord.

In regards to the connection between the devil and the serpent, the proof is solid as Paul indicates:

2Corin 11
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

And Paul then goes on to say who this Serpent represents:

4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

For the more dim witted, Paul makes this connection between the Serpent and the deceiving spirits (demons) who beguiled the believers of his time.

Moreover Jesus also makes this connection:

John 8
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

"Murderer from the beginning" is a description that fits Satan alone and what the Serpent did in the Garden of Eden. His slanderous lies brought death to the entire human race. "From the beginning" can only be considered in the light mankind's beginning since there was nothing to murder before then, and the devil took the form of a serpent.

John the Revelator also makes this connection:

Re 12:9 -
The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Re 20:2 -
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Human reason serves us well here. There is only one enemy of mankind, and has shown a consistant character throughout the ages. The Serpent can be none other than the devil.
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What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death!

Yehushuan · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: Re: devil and trinity

Adondai,

To reject the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity does not necessarily mean that one rejects the Deity of Jesus. I’m Bi, not Tri (but I’ve posted at length on this before).

To reject the Catholic doctrine of the immortal soul does not necessarily mean that one rejects immortality. The difficulty here is making a singular equate between the Greek word psuche (translated soul) and the Hebrew word nephesh. One must rely upon the Septuagint for this. Regardless, the New Testament word psuche (soul) just meant one’s awareness or consciousness – the you of you. While the theme of eternal life cannot be disputed among various Christian beliefs, it becomes a bit weird to assert that one is alive during eternal death. Yet the complete and utter obliteration of the unrepentant sinner may be harder for some to accept, so they rely upon eternal vengeance and torture to make themselves feel better.

To reject the Catholic doctrine of the devil does not necessarily mean that one rejects the existence of a singular conscious (psuche) entity (the devil) exercising some measure of authority over similar critters. The travesty that smdt joyfully wallows in, is that rejection of the wildass speculation of Catholic vain imaginations to embrace the Bible as some kind of cosmic word puzzle from which to derive all knowledge, leaves very little pickings from which to derive a satisfactory explanation of Satan. Having personally met four critters, and successfully exorcising two, has most certainly warped (er. altered) my view of reality.

God Bless,
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.

Adondai · Not So Newbie Joined: 26 Dec 2007 Posts: 6

Haha, thanks for the replies, very intresting. I think i followed you Yehu, so sorry if i misundestood something you were saying in this reply:

Well so i dont distence myself from you too much, i will agree yes, there is a 'devil' or satan, but not as a being like God and the angels. The devil is just all the evils, lusts and desires that we as humans possess.

The way i look at it is there is God, and it is he who sets what is righteous. Instead of this concept of their being a sort of war between good and evil, or God and Satan, instead their is just God, and everything else not of God.

Therefore it stands to reason this is in opposition to God, or the 'adversary' that is Satan. As humans we know right and wrong. We have the capacity to go against what God has said is 'right', this sinful nature which opposes God is the 'satan'.

As you would of course agree, the Bible is the inspired word of God, and as you would also agree, every belief must remain consistent with it.

Why your argument (saintmichaeldefendthem) doesnt persuade me, and im honestly not trying to abuse you or anything here, just discuss, is that you seem to be fitting the bible into your theology.

Its something i notice with people explaining the trinity too, they explain their beliefs using the bible, instead of using the bible to explain their beliefs. That may sound weird, but what i mean is they already have the notion of the trinity, or devil, which you accept, and then find verses which seem to support it.

The whole of the bible must fit together perfectly, if it doesnt, then it cannot be inspired.

for example for each of those doctrines, accepting them brings up questions which are forever being debated, argued, rejected etc etc. Often fancy new non-biblical language ands are introduced, like my favourite: "progressive revelation". Instead of saying, hey maybe this isnt quite right, and looking at the bible for your answers. I'll give some examples.

Immortal soul:
- Why did God not reveal that all men have immortal souls right from the beginning?

2)If all men have immortal souls, it begs the question: when exactly did these immortal souls come into existence? Does an unborn baby have an immortal soul? Does a fetus have an immortal soul? Does a fertilized egg at conception have an immortal soul? If so, what do these immortal souls look like if the unborn baby dies in the womb? Does the soul of a stillborn baby instantly gain full adulthood in appearance when they reach heaven (or hell)? Do the souls of these dead babies have fully developed brains when they reach heaven (or hell)? Where will they have gained the knowledge to speak and the powers of memory and reason? What does instantly elevating a dead baby into the presence of Jesus in heaven do to the core doctrines of the Christian faith, such as, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6) and "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10)?

- If an immortal soul comes into existence at the moment an egg is fertilized in the mother's womb, then that would mean that our immortal soul at one point did not exist. If this be true, then why is it inconceivable that this immortal soul could not once more cease from existing? In other words, if our soul at one time did not exist, why cannot that state of non-existence repeat itself?

- If immortal souls have bodies -- fingers, toes, eyes, etc. (based upon Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man) then what use is there for a resurrected body? If the soul has a physical appearance, with human appendages, then the body rotting in the grave is of no further use, and reuniting the immortal soul with its resurrected body at a future date would be useless.

The belief that the righteous and wicked go to their reward in heaven or hell not only destroys the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, but it destroys the core doctrine of the necessity of Jesus' death. If Abraham and Lazarus and all the ancient faithful were rewarded for their lives of righteousness BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Obviously Abraham got to "paradise" without Jesus, so why does one need Jesus in the first place?

6) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13, 15

-What purpose is the Final Judgment if all men and their immortal souls are judged immediately upon death? What sense is there in calling back the dead from "hell"? If the "damned" are sent to a fiery, eternal torment when they die, then what is the logic of judging them a second time at the "Final Judgment"? Will there be new evidence that will exonerate some of the damned so that a new "final" verdict will move them from hell to heaven? Will new witnesses come forward to testify that some of the wicked were in fact righteous and that they were assigned to the fiery torment in error? If not, then what purpose does it serve to raise the dead? Is not their future fate the same as the one they were experiencing prior to the Final Judgment?

Well I could go on bout the devil and everything too, but i doubt anyone would read it. Im intrested in your replies tho Smile

saintmichaeldefendthem · Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:05 am Post subject:

Wow! How much too much knowledge diverts one from true knowledge.

If you post that the Bible is no authority concerning doctrinal or religious issues, then I'm not sure we have a common basis for a fruitful discussion on any topic. Somehow my faith in something that has lasted for 60 centuries is much stronger than your incoherent ramblings, but what do I know? By the way, I wouldn't fall in love with "angels don't have wings because it's not in the Bible" Yehushuan too soon. You may find that he thinks the Bible is an authority too.

P.S. Have you noted the title of this forum?
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What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death!

Adondai · Not So Newbie Joined: 26 Dec 2007 Posts: 6

eh? sorry? i pointed out inconsistencies in those doctrines using the bible.... do you have and answer or explanation?

45degreeN · Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:15 am Post subject:

The most frustrating part is when scripture has nothing to say directly on a subject and it leaves us to figure it out for ourselves.

We can accept the Church's say on the subject but they have just as little to go on as we do, and we have the same access to the Holy Spirit as they do also.

Or we can claim freedom of conscience on the subject and use the God given intelligence we have to decide for ourselves. Claiming there is NO authority (from God) to say one way or the other.

Theoretically our social institutions can offer us a secular choice and take civil authority but that is hardly the same.
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Adondai · Not So Newbie Joined: 26 Dec 2007 Posts: 6

So your saying regardless of what the bible says you will accept what you believe without question? that goes against what Paul says in the NT when he commends one group, I cant memba which atm, for checking everything he told them with their scriptures.

Rocket · House Cat Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 160

I believe in the Bible. I know some scriptures have been altered by translators over time, but the essence of what Yeshua taught is still in tact so why argue over the small details?
As for the church, any church, all are based on Catholic doctrine and Catholic doctrine was based not on what Yeshua believed as an Isralite but what Pagans believe with a little New Testament added to it. Not a good thing.

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2126

Rocket,

Hi, Very Happy

Rocket · House Cat Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 160

Hi TBAX, The Catholic church was the only Christian church from the forth century until the Prostestant reformation in the 16th century. At that time men like John Westley formed churches that followed their interpretation based on the Catholic doctrine.
I am glad to hear your church is based on the Bible and not Catholic doctrine and am curious to know what that church might be.

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2126

Rocket,

Hi, Very Happy

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. One of the reasons many speak against us is because we don't follow the "norm" created by the Catholic church, which includes the trinity. My brothers, early on, realized the "churches" didn't teach what the Bible actually taught. They looked into the Bible to find out the truth. And looking at how the first century Christians lived is beneficial. Jesus and the apostles foretold how the apostasy would take place but Jesus showed how the truth would once again flourish in the last days. The trinity is clearly not taught in the Bible. In order for one to believe a trinity one needs to have a preconcieved idea and try to search the Bible to fit that idea. Not a good thing. Sad

_________________
Agape,
TBax

Rocket · House Cat Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 160

TBax, I am aware of JW beliefs, I know they do not believe in the trinity, it's the rest of what they believe that bothers me, it to is not Biblical.

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2126

Rocket,

Hi, Very Happy

You don't think what we believe is Biblical?
Of coarse, I totally disagree. Very Happy

All our beliefs come from the Bible. We try to view things like Jesus did and does. That is why we don't believe the trinity, we don't get involved in the politics of this world, we preach about the kingdom, and we don't get involved in religious celebrations with pagan origins or with pagan customs mixed in. All based on Bible principles and in imitation of our exempler, Jesus. Very Happy

If you care to discuss this there is a JW section on this board. Bring up any questions you may have. Very Happy

_________________
Agape,
TBax

45degreeN · Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:19 am Post subject:

To think that there was no other Protestant church until the 16th century only displays your ignorance of history.

"The History of Protestantism" a book written by James Wylie in 1878 explains the real roots of protestantism and how its beginnings are almost from the origin of Catholicism. www.doctrine.org

Please do not perpetuate this myth about only a 16th century protestant movement. There were protesters as early as the 4th century to the Roman Catholic pagan practices. Read about Ambrose! The Waldensians and the Carolingians, all down through European history the protesters lived and worked and read their scriptures.
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