Hell as defined by Scripture.

bitterlily · Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Hell as defined by Scripture.

Hi all,

This is one of the studies I've been meaning to do for sometime now. To do a thorough Study of all the original words translated as Hell in both the OT and NT to see what the end result is. Please know that I'm not here to debate for or against it. I sincerely want to know the Bible's full definition and description of Hell. Feel free to study with me if you like.

Okay, I checked the whole of the OT and found only one Hebrew word for Hell and that is:

H7585 she'ôl

But I found that this one word has been translated 4 different ways as follows:

Hell = 31 (occurances)
Grave = 30
Pit = 3
Grave's = 1
TOTAL = 65

My goal now is to determine which of these words is the most accurate translation of the Hebrew word Sheol.

The next thing I did was a comparison with the Septuagint with Strongs (Greek OT translated between the 3rd and 1st Century BC). I like doing this because the Septuagint was written by 72 Jewish Scholars for a Greek King, and this helps me to make a connection between Hebrew words in the OT and Greek words in the NT.

Out of the 65 times that Sheol appears in the KJV+ it is translated as Hades in the Septuagint 60 times. So I think we can be quite confident of the following:

Hebrew Sheol = Greek Hades

In the NT the word Hades appears a total of 11 times like thus:

Hell = 10
Grave = 1
TOTAL = 11

I will get to these later.

I just finished reading the first verse in the OT containing the Hebrew word for Hell (H7585) and already this study has become very interesting (well for me anyway)! Very Happy

Look at this:

And Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, I will go down into the SHEOL [b]unto my son mourning[/b]. Thus his father wept for him. Gen 37:34-35

I (Jacob) will go down into the SHEOL unto my son (Joseph) mourning...

Now I'm sure all would agree that judging from this verse alone SHEOL can't possibly be the Fiery Hell of Eternal Torment Jacob was talking about, especially when Jesus said the following about Jacob:

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mat 22:32

So i think we can safely cross off Hell as a wrong translation of both Sheol and Hades. The only possible answer for now is Grave or Pit and for now I am content to conclude that the Grave and the Pit are the same thing. So to summarise:

Hebrew Sheol = Greek Hades = English Grave

Now lets have a look at the 11 Hades verses in the NT and apply the English meaning to these verses. The words that have been changed to Grave are shown in CAPS:

And you, Capernaum, which is exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to the GRAVE: for if the mighty works, which have been done in you, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Mat 11:23

And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of the GRAVE shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:18

And you, Capernaum, which are exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down to the GRAVE. Luk 10:15

And in the GRAVE he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeing Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:23

Because you will not leave my soul in the GRAVE, neither will you allow your Holy One to see corruption. Act 2:27

He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in the GRAVE, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:31

O death, where is your sting? O grave (unchanged), where is your victory? 1Co 15:55

I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of the GRAVE and of death. Rev 1:18

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on it was Death, and the GRAVE followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the living creatures of the earth. Rev 6:8

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and the GRAVE delivered up the dead who were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:13

And death and the GRAVE were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:14

Now it could be argued that the verse in Luk 16:23 proves that HADES means HELL because it says that the man was in torment. And lets for a moment say this was true. That would me that the verse in 1Co 15:55 would have to be changed to HELL as well:

O death, where is your sting? O HELL, where is your victory? 1Co 15:55

I looked up the word translated TORMENT in Luk 16:23 and found it's literal meaning is actually TOUCHSTONE! So it should say:

And in the GRAVE he lifted up his eyes, being in a TOUCHSTONE, and seeing Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:23

I did a google search and found a most interesting article on TOUCHSTONE. For the full article click HERE

Here are the statements that stuck out to me:

MoJo · Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:19 am Post subject:

Hi lily; this is how I would approach the question. There are 3 instances where this word "torments" are used.

Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment

Strongs 931

1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth

3) torture, torment, acute pains

This word is closely associated with where the word torment is used in other scripture.

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

and some others.

Strongs 929, 928

1) to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

2) torment, torture

a) the act of tormenting

b) the state or condition of those tormented

Same root word and basically the same definition. So now we have more scriptures to work with to define it by context. In all cases, it relates to pain. The word torment is never used in the OT, however the word pain in association with hell/grave is.

Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Therefore, IMO, the word is more easily understood as pain as everyone can understand that as opposed to touchstone, although I daresay there's some hidden treasure in that as well.

It gives more to work with. Interesting study.

Very Happy

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

Hi Bitterlilly, MoJo
Torments is only used in eschatological or symbolic context, such as Rev14. So when we get cold sober texts like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 we don't find "torment" we find:

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

It's a choice, we have to choose whether to
(a) read 2Thess1:9 literally, and read Rev14 as a vision
(b) read Rev14 literally, and redefine "destruction" in 2Thess1:9 as "torment".

We can't have our cake and eat it on this one. Either Rev14 is literal or 2Thess1:9. For each to choose the one that makes sense.
God bless
Steven

bitterlily · Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject:

Hi Steven, Very Happy

Could you explain what you are saying a bit more coz I feel a bit lost to your point but don't want to overlook it?

bitterlily · Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject:

Hi Folks,

Feel free to keep throwing in your thoughts coz they are much appreciated. I really want to explore the definition of Hades thoroughly but I don't think I can do that with out first doing a basic check of all the other words that have been translated as Hell. So I'm gonna move on for now and come back to it later.

Okay...

The next word translated as Hell is GEENA or GEHENNA. It appears a total of 12 times and is translated as Hell in each place. Here is the Strong's definition of GEHENNA:

G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

GEHENNA = VALLEY OF HINNOM

Before we have a look at the Valley of Hinnom in the OT let's first look at the 12 places it appears in the NT:

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of the VALLEY OF HINNOM fire. Mat 5:22

And if your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into the VALLEY OF HINNOM. Mat 5:29

And if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into the VALLEY OF HINNOM. Mat 5:30

And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in the VALLEY OF HINNOM. Mat 10:28

And if your eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the VALLEY OF HINNOM fire. Mat 18:9

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you travel on sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of the VALLEY OF HINNOM than yourselves. Mat 23:15

You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the judgment of the VALLEY OF HINNOM? Mat 23:33

And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into the VALLEY OF HINNOM, into the fire that is unquenchable: Mar 9:43

And if your foot offends you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter lame into life, than having two feet to be cast into the VALLEY OF HINNOM, into the fire that is unquenchable: Mar 9:45

And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into the VALLEY OF HINNOM fire: Mar 9:47

But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, who after he has killed has power to cast into the VALLEY OF HINNOM; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luk 12:5

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by the VALLEY OF HINNOM. Jas 3:6

Okay...So the VALLEY OF HINNOM is obviously not a place that Jesus recommends we visit. #Nooo...not me!

That's why I find this last verse in James most interesting. Let me break it down and add a few of the surrounding verses.

THE TONGUE...
Is a fire...
A WORLD (kosmos) of Iniquity, so is the tongue in our members (body parts)...
Defiles the whole body...
Sets on fire the course of Nature OR the WHEEL OF GENESIS. Shocked

Is set on fire by the VALLEY OF HINNOM...(Jas 3:6)
Can NO man tame...
it is an unrestrainable evil...
full of DEATH-BEARING poison. (Jas 3:8)
Is a small member of the Body and boasts great things...
How much FOREST a little fire BURNS...

How can the VALLEY OF HINNOM set the tongue on fire when Jesus said:

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Luk 6:45

This seems to suggest that the VALLEY OF HINNOM dwells in the Heart of Man which in turn sets the tongue on Fire. The following verses in James also seem to support this:

But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With this bless we God, even the Father; and with this curse we men, who are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Does a fountain send forth from the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Jas 3:8-12

Notice how he said that from the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing but then he says no fountain can yield both salt water and fresh, sweet water and bitter. How can both be true? I'm thinking there must be 2 fountains and 2 trees.

Could these 2 be the Old man and New Man?

Jesus said He was a tree (the True Vine) so maybe the Old man is a tree also? Maybe even the tree of Knowledge of G&E? Jesus also said:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. Joh 15:4-5

I'm not sure exactly what type of fruit Vine He is but I'm guessing a Grape Vine? Lets just say for a moment that He is, and I think I am abiding in the Grape Vine but for some reason I am growing figs on my branches. Confused or disgusted

Based on James' testimony these Figs are not being produced by a Grape Vine but by a Fig tree. So then I would have to conclude that while I thought I was abiding in a Grape Vine I was actually abiding in a Fig Tree. Sad

In other words I was abiding in the Flesh and not the Spirit; the Old Man and not the New Man:

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good life his works with meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, boast not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descends not from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by them that make peace. Jas 3:13-18

Sorry, took a little detour but I think it is all relevant to the study of our tongue and how it is set on fire by the VALLEY OF HINNOM. This has come as a surprise, but I honestly think the VALLEY OF HINNOM dwells in the Old Man.

I'm far from finished exploring this Valley but it's that time again. #Sleep

Feel free to share your thoughts. Wink

Lots of Love
Bitterlily

bitterlily · Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:01 am Post subject:

Hi Mojo,

I'm sorry, I just noticed that the reply I posted to you yesterday is not here and I'm assuming I must have posted over the top of it. Has this happened to you before? It seems to happen sometimes when I open too many windows on the same thread at the same time. I don't have time right now to rewrite it coz it's my bedtime but just wanted to let you know that I accept the point you were making about pain and torment.

I had a thought or rather a question pop into my mind tonight about the Grave/Hades. Is it possible that the Grave/Hades is actually the Old Man that buries us in death, corruption, pain and torment? This would account for why the physical death of Adam and Eve wasn't immediate, because they died to the Spirit of God when they were buried by the Old Man:

In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return. Gen 3:19

So The First Adam (Old Man) was already Dust (as in Naked of the Spirit that had clothed Him), and all that was left for him to do was to return to the Dust physically (die).

I better go to bed...busy day tomorrow. Very Happy

Much Love
Bitterlily

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:48 am Post subject:

Hi Bitterlily,

This caught my eye:

Sets on fire the course of Nature OR the WHEEL OF GENESIS

wondering what that means?? Confused or disgusted

hugs
lone

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

Outstanding post bitterlily.

Paul

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

I believe that hades can be any lower portion of the earth. It could be a grave, a valley, etc.. from what I see. I believe for example that the lake of fire could be considered a hades filled with fire metaphorically speaking. Baptism's occur in lakes and rivers which are both lower portions or parts in the earth. So why couldn't a baptism by fire occur in the lake of fire?

Thoughts?

Paul

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:04 am Post subject:

Hi Paul,

thinkin..

bitterlily wrote:

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject:

like in the olympics lol..
the race to see who gets there first..LOL..

I think the tongue is like water when it is filled with grace and love and mercy..and it is like fire when it is filled with judgment and revenge and anger..

but the funny thing is truth..truth can be both..it's hot and cold..

ohh..whats that lukewarm.. Idea

neither hot nor cold?
what does a lukewarm tongue sound like?
Confused or disgusted

hugs
lone

bitterlily · Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject:

Hi Paul and Love,

It was an exciting surprise to wake up and read all your thoughts. Very Happy

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

This is a great discussion Bitterlily. Thanks for starting it. God has given you ears.

Paul

bitterlily · Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject:

Hello again Paul and Love,