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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: Is this true? |
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Something New has come to my attention today -
w70 7/15 438 Obedience the Desired Course ***
21) Not all children turn out the same way or for good. Jehovah's heavenly family had two outstanding sons that are brought to our attention in the Bible-one turned out bad. He made himself Satan the Devil. (Job 1:6; 2 Cor. 11:3, 14; John8:44; 1 John 3:8; Rev. 12:9)
Did the J.W's really believe that their alleged Satan and Jesus are brothers, do they still maintain that belief?
The Mormons believe their Satan and jesus are brothers.
Thank you |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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The angel who became Satan was a son of God.
However, Satan created himself when his desire for worship caused him to sin. This scripture applies to humans but equally to the angels that rebelled.
Deut 32: 5 They have acted ruinously on their own part;
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Satan created himself |
Huh?
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'Satan' is only real to those who don't want to admit their own personal failings. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: |
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The key here is if you continue to read the remainder of that sentence you should understand that point. 
The angel became "Satan", the adversary, when he began to oppose God. Hence God didn't create the angel as an opposer, but he created himself as such.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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1. So are you saying your Satan IS Jesus' brother or not?
2. Heavenly angels NEVER oppose God -
Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure. (Psalm 103:21) KJV
NB: ALL HIS HOSTS DO GOD'S PLEASURE.
If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim.
3. Heavenly angels are incapable of Sin or rebellion -
a) For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJS
b) ALL heavenly angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJS
If you can never die, then you can never sin.
4. Satan simply means 'adversary' so why do you keep referring to your alleged evil angel as Satan as a proper name when it NEVER is?
You are being totally dishonest by 'implying' your fallen heavenly angel being literally exists and also has a proper name 'Satan' when Satan is NEVER a proper name of anything?
The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald, for instance (p.93 How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com) |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | The key here is if you continue to read the remainder of that sentence you should understand that point.
The angel became "Satan", the adversary, when he began to oppose God. Hence God didn't create the angel as an opposer, but he created himself as such. |
something struck me funny when you wrote that TBax,
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Adam and Eve were created after the image and likeness of God..
nothing about Cain and Abel after the image and likeness of Adam..until Seth was born...
Gen 5:1 ¶ This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
just made me think of that is all..
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| composer wrote: | So are you saying your Satan IS Jesus' brother or not?
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I am saying exactly what I said. They are no more spiritual brothers any more then you and I are. 
They both were God's sons, but Satan is no longer.
| composer wrote: | 2. Heavenly angels NEVER oppose God -
Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure. (Psalm 103:21) KJV |
If you think that scripture proves your conclusion(2.), you are wrong. You are concluding an absolute, NEVER, when that isn't indicated at all.  Yes, His hosts, his faithful angels bless him.
| composer wrote: | 3. Heavenly angels are incapable of Sin or rebellion -
a) For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJS
b) ALL heavenly angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJS
If you can never die, then you can never sin. |
Again your conclusion is dealing in absolutes. Yes, faithful angels don't die. The rebel angels that did sin will die. Even though you made a point using false logic with your absolutes, your point is directly opposed to the Bible. 
2 Peter 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned
Hmmmmm. Angels that sinned. Well, what do you know.
| composer wrote: | | The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald |
Yes, I saw this the other 13 times you wrote it. When are you going to understand the significance of the definite article in front of it, especially in Hebrew and most of the time in Greek?
Hmmmm????
Mosquito, when are you going to learn the a descriptive term can be an identifing term, or name, as well???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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| composer wrote: | So are you saying your Satan IS Jesus' brother or not?
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| TBax wrote: | I am saying exactly what I said. They are no more spiritual brothers any more then you and I are. :lol:
They both were God's sons, but Satan is no longer. |
Again your claim of a 'literal Satan spirit being' is a misnomer.
The only literal Satan spirit being you have is in your imagination. It ain't in the Bible.
Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure. (Psalm 103:21) KJV
ALL means ALL do God's pleasure and it is not God's pleasure to spread evil so ALL angels are obedient and NONE ever disobey or disobeyed.
More so you have again failed to demonstrate that some of this ALL His hosts are not still belonging to Him?
You are long on rhetoric and conjecture but miserable at legitimate Biblical support for your theories.
| composer wrote: | 2. Heavenly angels NEVER oppose God -
Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure. (Psalm 103:21) KJV |
| TBax wrote: | | If you think that scripture proves your conclusion(2.), you are wrong. You are concluding an absolute, NEVER, when that isn't indicated at all. :oops: Yes, His hosts, his faithful angels bless him. |
Christ gave that ABSOLUTE when he said - . . . Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (Luke 11: 2) KJV
You misread that as "the J.W;s god's will is sometimes done because there was a war there apparently and some were naughty and got thrown out'
Christ didn't say that God's Will is only done sometimes or there was a war there but all is fine for the moment until the next war might break out. He made it unambiguously clear that God's Will is, was and always done and accepting your hypothesis for a moment, it is impossible for evil to enter into God's heavenly domain for a moment let alone hang around for a war there -
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Evil shall not sojourn with thee. (Psalm 5: 4) ASV
#Strong's concordance renders: 'sojourn': -
1a1) to sojourn, dwell for a time
1a2) to abide, stay, temporarily dwell
NB: Evil can never stay in God's presence even for a brief or short or temporary time whatsoever, let alone long enough for a war against God.
| composer wrote: | 3. Heavenly angels are incapable of Sin or rebellion -
a) For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJS
b) ALL heavenly angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJS
If you can never die, then you can never sin. |
| TBax wrote: | Again your conclusion is dealing in absolutes. Yes, faithful angels don't die. The rebel angels that did sin will die. Even though you made a point using false logic with your absolutes, your point is directly opposed to the Bible. :(
2 Peter 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned |
The angels that sinned of 2 Pet. 2: 4 are mortals.
I can say this with unambiguous confidence because there are NO literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings and you haven't produced a scrap of legitimate evidence to sustain your theory. Satan simply means ADVERSARY.
| TBax wrote: | | Hmmmmm. Angels that sinned. Well, what do you know. :lol: |
You haven't got a scrap of evidence to support your fallen heavenly angel theories. These angels / angelos / messengers who became corrupt were mortals and we know this is tue because of the reasons I have given here and confirmed by the Bible.
| composer wrote: | | The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald |
| TBax wrote: | Yes, I saw this the other 13 times you wrote it. When are you going to understand the significance of the definite article in front of it, especially in Hebrew and most of the time in Greek?
Hmmmm???? :lol: |
Ok!, so we put 'the adversary', so where's your fallen heavenly angel being?
What does the Bible say Is 'above all' the greatest adversary of God?
Is it your Satan evil spirit being?
| TBax wrote: | | Mosquito, when are you going to learn the a descriptive term can be an identifing term, or name, as well??? |
I will not lower myself to your low and pitiful standards. Insults is all you have in lieu of a shred of decency or Scriptural evidence to legitimately support your current ideology.
I shall just carry on unambiguously exposing your false doctrine with accurate support from the Bible as I always succesfully do.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: Is this true?
. . . . . . w70 7/15 438 Obedience the Desired Course ***
21) Not all children turn out the same way or for good. Jehovah's heavenly family had two outstanding sons that are brought to our attention in the Bible-one turned out bad. He made himself Satan the Devil. (Job 1:6; 2 Cor. 11:3, 14; John8:44; 1 John 3:8; Rev. 12:9)
This is again confirmed as a load of rubbish because you haven't even got a legitimate 'Satan literal spirit being' other than in your collective imaginations and devoid of legitimate Scriptural support other than referring to the term Satan which is the Hebrew Term meaning simply 'adversary'.
Thank you |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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composer,
Dude, you make no sense and you lack understanding. 
| composer wrote: | | Again your claim of a 'literal Satan spirit being' is a misnomer. |
I know what you believe. You asked a question and I answered, and you respond by changing the subject? If you don't want to know my responce why ask the question? Your question in no way led me to your understanding, so that response is inappropriate.
Your entire response is lame and you cannot understand the lesson I am making by calling you by the NAME " the mosquito".  You have nothing. You read a scripture and deal with it like it is providing an absolute when they weren't intended that way. You write lengthy responces and consistantly use logical fallacies to prove your point.
| composer wrote: | | The angels that sinned of 2 Pet. 2: 4 are mortals. |
Yes. They are mortal and they will die. God is immortal, and he gave immortality to Jesus and those that will rule with Jesus as kings. The angels are never said to be immortal. Faithful angels have everlasting life like we will have one day, but that is not immortality. We will always be dependent on God for our lives. Was that over your head?
| composer wrote: | | I can say this with unambiguous confidence because there are NO literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings and you haven't produced a scrap of legitimate evidence to sustain your theory. |
Because composer cannot comprehend it doesn't mean the evidence wasn't provided.
| composer wrote: | | Ok!, so we put 'the adversary', so where's your fallen heavenly angel being? |
Yes, I am sure the name should be "the fallen heavenly angel being who became the adversary".
| composer wrote: | | You haven't got a scrap of evidence to support your fallen heavenly angel theories. |
Sure I do. You simply twist the scriptures to try to negate it. Like the demons sent into the swine. Also:
Eph 6: 12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.
ALSO Jesus identified the ruler of the demons as Satan, greek ho satanas:
23 Well, all the crowds were simply carried away and began to say: “May this not perhaps be the Son of David?” 24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·el´ze·bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·el´ze·bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU.
...or the parallel account...
Luke 11:15 But certain ones of them said: “He expels the demons by means of Be·el´ze·bub the ruler of the demons.” 16 However, others, to tempt him, began seeking a sign out of heaven from him. 17 Knowing their imaginations he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and a house [divided] against itself falls. 18 So if Satan is also divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because YOU say I expel the demons by means of Be·el´ze·bub. 19 If it is by means of Be·el´ze·bub I expel the demons, by whom do YOUR sons expel them? Because of this they will be judges of YOU. 20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Now it is your turn to try to nullify these scriptures like you usually do.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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| TBax wrote: | composer,
Dude, you make no sense and you lack understanding. :cry: |
| composer wrote: | | Again your claim of a 'literal Satan spirit being' is a misnomer. |
| TBax wrote: | I know what you believe. You asked a question and I answered, and you respond by changing the subject? If you don't want to know my responce why ask the question? Your question in no way led me to your understanding, so that response is inappropriate.
Your entire response is lame and you cannot understand the lesson I am making by calling you by the NAME " the mosquito". :roll: You have nothing. You read a scripture and deal with it like it is providing an absolute when they weren't intended that way. You write lengthy responces and consistantly use logical fallacies to prove your point. :roll: |
Just because you 'call' me a mosquito doesn't legitimately make me what you call me. You are 'inferring something that is false' just like your calling your unproven fallen heavenly angel literal spirit J.W being 'Satan' doesn't mean it literally exists other than in your fanciful imagination nor is it accurate, which of course it is not.
You never answer questions credibly but instead squirm around with conjecture and none sense.
Satan means 'adversary' that is all and your misuse of it as a proper name is improper. But hey, that doesn't stop the likes of you.
You have NOT answered my questions and you continually ignore the Scriptures to suit your flawed ideology.
| composer wrote: | | The angels that sinned of 2 Pet. 2: 4 are mortals. |
| TBax wrote: | | Yes. They are mortal and they will die. |
Ok, so you admit that these angels are mortals. You admit they are 'mortal angels that sinned'
So the next step for you is to demonstrate that their are literal 'fallen heavenly spirit angels?'
| TBax wrote: | | God is immortal, and he gave immortality to Jesus and those that will rule with Jesus as kings. The angels are never said to be immortal. |
What are the properties of 'immortality' TBax?
You agree that Jesus is now immortal.
Does that mean that Jesus can ever die?
| TBax wrote: | | Faithful angels have everlasting life like we will have one day, but that is not immortality. We will always be dependent on God for our lives. Was that over your head? |
Everything is dependent on God.
| composer wrote: | | I can say this with unambiguous confidence because there are NO literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings and you haven't produced a scrap of legitimate evidence to sustain your theory. |
| TBax wrote: | | Because composer cannot comprehend it doesn't mean the evidence wasn't provided. |
You provided little except appealing to the Text that says 'adversary or the adversary or an adversary' so where is your alleged evidence of fallen heavenly angels literal spirit beings?'
| composer wrote: | | Ok!, so we put 'the adversary', so where's your fallen heavenly angel being? |
| TBax wrote: | | Yes, I am sure the name should be "the fallen heavenly angel being who became the adversary". :roll: |
I thought you claimed there were multiple fallen heavenly angel spirit beings?
You are long on claims and short (devoid) on any actual legititmate Biblical evidence.
Show us what you claim to have?
| composer wrote: | | You haven't got a scrap of evidence to support your fallen heavenly angel theories. |
| TBax wrote: | | Sure I do. You simply twist the scriptures to try to negate it. Like the demons sent into the swine. Also: |
The J.W jesus drowns spirits? what a joke!
| TBax wrote: | | Eph 6: 12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. |
So you think your J.W's satan is a higher power do you?
So you think your J.W's satan literal spirit wicked being is in the J.W's god's heavenly places do you?
| TBax wrote: | ALSO Jesus identified the ruler of the demons as Satan, greek ho satanas:
23 Well, all the crowds were simply carried away and began to say: “May this not perhaps be the Son of David?” 24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·el´ze·bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·el´ze·bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU.
...or the parallel account...
Luke 11:15 But certain ones of them said: “He expels the demons by means of Be·el´ze·bub the ruler of the demons.” 16 However, others, to tempt him, began seeking a sign out of heaven from him. 17 Knowing their imaginations he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and a house [divided] against itself falls. 18 So if Satan is also divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because YOU say I expel the demons by means of Be·el´ze·bub. 19 If it is by means of Be·el´ze·bub I expel the demons, by whom do YOUR sons expel them? Because of this they will be judges of YOU. 20 But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
Now it is your turn to try to nullify these scriptures like you usually do. :lol: |
Scriptural reality is all too much for you TBax.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of doing miracles by the power of a false god called Beelzebub. 2 Kings 1:2. clearly tells us that Beelzebub was a false god of the Philistines (Lord of the Flies).
Jesus said, "If I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your children cast them out?" (Matthew 12:27).
Jesus did not say, "Look here, stop your none sense, 2 Kings 1:2 says Beelzebub was a false god of the Philistines, so your accusation is clearly false".
This Jesus DID NOT DO, instead he spoke "as if" Beelzebub existed, because he was interested in getting his message through to the people to whom he preached. Why in this way?
For it was just as difficult then as it is now extremely difficult / near impossible to easily change / alter peoples" old ways / past teachings / traditions and beliefs etc."
Jesus used this same methodology regarding the "casting out demons" - he did not keep saying to them, 'in reality, they do not exist' and you are mistaken, he just preached the Gospel in the generally accepted "mode / language of the day", hopeful that his works and miracles would speak for themselves, and would convince many that Jesus' "visible" miracles / works etc would demonstrate his capacity to do as he claimed.
Perhaps you could provide me with Scriptural evidence that states that your alleged little demons / Satan / devil / fallen heavenly angels create evil?
The word "Satan" is merely a Transliterated Hebrew word meaning an ADVERSARY / OPPOSER.
It is NEVER originally legitimately intended to be the name or title of an alleged "fallen heavenly being". That has been corruptly adopted by Orthodoxy and their J.W TBax' clones in this regard.
The Original Greek NT Text NEVER SAYS Satan, but rather an ADVERSARY / OPPOSER / ENEMY.
You have also still yet to demonstrate that such fallen supernatural beings exist. Your evidence please?
Oh yea! and say hi! to the J.W's jesus' brother satan for me!
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Strong's renders: -
BDB/Thayers # 1176
01176 Ba`al Z@buwb {bah'-al zeb-oob'}
from 01168 and 02070;; n pr m
AV - Baalzebub 4; 4
Baal-zebub = "lord of the fly"
1) a Philistine deity worshipped at Ekron
So your J.W TBax doctrine rests upon a false Philistine god of the flies of the dung pile. I knew that already, and that is why your J.W Satan doctrine is fallacious.
Fascinated to also hear about the J.W - TBax' jesus that tried to drown spirits?
Cheers! |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Is this true? |
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Well people who take Michael and Satan literally generally see them as "brothers" in being co-archangels.
That applies across the board - not just to the Watchtower. Many Evangelicals also believe Jesus preexisted as Michael (and even Melchizedek).
Almost no one accepts Jesus as son (as in son-son, really son) of Mary.
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Steven3,
Hi,
| Steven wrote: | Well people who take Michael and Satan literally generally see them as "brothers" in being co-archangels.
That applies across the board - not just to the Watchtower. |
Co-archangels???
Sorry, but you are wrong. The scriptures never give Satan that honor. Satan does try to do things in imitation of God's heavenly organization. Even though he has rulership over the demons he perhaps tries to be a archangel but the scriptures never give him that designation. Even before he turned into Satan, even though he had an honored position he was never refered to as archangel.
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: |
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composer,
Mosquito is a name you are identified by. Mosquito is not a proper name like Donald. Neither is "composer2005"!!! But that is how you are known here!
Mosquito was a name given to you by me. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't a name you are called. You don't have to accept the name for it to be a name. The same is true with the "name" Satan!!!
| composer wrote: | | So the next step for you is to demonstrate that their are literal 'fallen heavenly spirit angels?' |
2 Peter 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;
1 Peter 3: 19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.
| composer wrote: | | What are the properties of 'immortality' TBax? |
Having life within you. Not dependent on any outside source for life. Therefore, humans can never be immortal.
| composer wrote: | | TBax wrote: | Yes, I am sure the name should be "the fallen heavenly angel being who became the adversary".
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I thought you claimed there were multiple fallen heavenly angel spirit beings? |
Are you serious? You want a responce to this level of silliness?
| composer wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Sure I do. You simply twist the scriptures to try to negate it. Like the demons sent into the swine. Also: |
The J.W jesus drowns spirits? what a joke! |
And me hoping you can be reasonable is a joke. The account doesn't say that. That is you building a strawman!!!
| composer wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Eph 6: 12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. |
So you think your J.W's satan is a higher power do you?
So you think your J.W's satan literal spirit wicked being is in the J.W's god's heavenly places do you?
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What does that scripture say?
Your explanation of Beelzebub being a false god is possibly true if it is a play on Baal-zebub. There are other possibilities as well. They are all beside the point though, and this is a red herring drawing attention away from the point.
Regardless of your explanation, the account tells us Jesus cast out demons, and identified the ruler as Satan, regardless of the name the Pharisees gave. Jesus showed Satan has a kingdom that doesn't work against itself. Therefore wicked spirits are associated with Satan! How did Jesus expel the demons? How is it their sons were able to expel demons? Appearently they did, according to Jesus.
Eph 6: 12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hello ya'll I have been reading over the post and have a few questions. Please forgive me for any dumb questions.
1) If Satan is not a real being why is "Satan" capitalized?
2) If Satan is not a real being who was the Lord speaking with in Job?
3) Or for that matter Jesus of Eve?
4) “And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.” (2 Cor. 11:14) NKJ How is it that a non being can transform himself?
Maybe I am just naive; I tend to take the Bible for what it says, and use scholars to back up my interpretation. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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| TBax wrote: | Steven3,
Hi, :D
| Steven wrote: | Well people who take Michael and Satan literally generally see them as "brothers" in being co-archangels.
That applies across the board - not just to the Watchtower. |
Co-archangels???
Sorry, but you are wrong. The scriptures never give Satan that honor. |
Because it doesn't exist as you purport this 'Satan' to be?
| TBax wrote: | | Satan does try to do things in imitation of God's heavenly organization. Even though he has rulership over the demons he perhaps tries to be a archangel but the scriptures never give him that designation. |
Because there is no fallen heavenly angel literally called Satan. You repeatedly corrupt the Scriptures.
| TBax wrote: | | Even before he turned into Satan, even though he had an honored position he was never refered to as archangel. |
Your typical rhetoric with not a shred of legitimate support from the Bible. You need a lot more than 'OoH look it says Satan and the fallen angels?
Cheers! |
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