Is this a misprint?? And were women ever Dukes??

luvnlife · Lion King Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 1123 Location: US

I was reading Genesis 36 today and ran across something that I don't quite understand. I wonder if it's a mis-print:

(KJV) Gen 36:

2 Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite;

Then reading further in verse 24:
24And these are the children of Zibeon; both Ajah, and Anah: this was that Anah that found the mules in the wilderness, as he fed the asses of Zibeon his father.

My (first) question is as follows:
Is Anah a son or a daughter? In verse two, does it refer to Anah as the daughter of Zibeon? Verse 24 refers to Anah as Zibeons son.

(second question) Were women Dukes? Verse 41 states that Aholibamah was a Duke. Verse 2 states that Aholibamah was one of Esaus' wives.

Thanks,

Luv

FFT · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject:

Genesis 36 is pretty fast and loose with "daughter" and "son." Look at 36:25, for instance. In the Hebrew it says "these were the sons of Anah" despite Oholibamah being a daughter. In verse two it's probably just saying granddaughter of Zibeon.

As to "duke," "chief" is a more appropriate translation. And yeah, looks like it unless it was refering to someone else, verse 5 has her bearing three children. Further, Timna is a concubine in verse 12 and the sister of Lotan in verse 22.

Both are also listed in 1 Chronicles 1:51-54.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6828 Location: USA

I've read through and found no problems. Perhaps it was a reading, or comprehension error.

Gen 36:1-30 NOW THIS is the history of the descendants of Esau, that is, Edom. (2) Esau took his wives from the women of Canaan: Adah daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah daughter of Anah, the son of Zibeon the Hivite, (3) And Basemath, Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebaioth. (4) Adah bore to Esau, Eliphaz; Basemath bore Reuel; (5) And Oholibamah bore Jeush, Jalam, and Korah. These are the sons of Esau born to him in Canaan. (6) Now Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the members of his household, his cattle, all his beasts, and all his possessions which he had obtained in the land of Canaan, and he went into a land away from his brother Jacob. (7) For their great flocks and herds and possessions [which they had collected] made it impossible for them to dwell together; the land in which they were strangers could not support them because of their livestock. (8) So Esau dwelt in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom. (9) And this is the history of the descendants of Esau the father of the Edomites in the hill country of Seir. (10) These are the names of Esau's sons: Eliphaz, the son of Adah, Esau's wife, and Reuel, the son of Basemath, Esau's wife. (11) And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz. (12) And Timna was a concubine of Eliphaz, Esau's son; and she bore Amalek to Eliphaz. These are the sons of Adah, Esau's wife. (13) These are the sons of Reuel: Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah. These are the sons of Basemath, Esau's wife. (14) And these are the sons of Oholibamah daughter of Anah, the son of Zibeon, Esau's wife. She bore to Esau: Jeush, Jalam, and Korah. (15) These are the chiefs of the sons of Esau: The sons of Eliphaz the firstborn of Esau: Chiefs Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz, (16) Korah, Gatam, and Amalek. These are the chiefs of Eliphaz in the land of Edom; they are the sons of Adah. (17) These are the sons of Reuel, Esau's son: Chiefs Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, Mizzah. These are the chiefs of Reuel in the land of Edom; they are the sons of Basemath, Esau's wife. (18) These are the sons of Oholibamah, Esau's wife: Chiefs Jeush, Jalam, and Korah. These are the chiefs born of Oholibamah daughter of Anah, Esau's wife. (19) These are the sons of Esau, that is, Edom, and these are their chiefs. (20) These are the sons of Seir the Horite, the inhabitants of the land: Lotan, Shobal, Zibeon, Anah, (21) Dishon, Ezer, and Dishan. These are the chiefs of the Horites, the sons of Seir in the land of Edom. (22) The sons of Lotan are Hori and Hemam; and Lotan's sister is Timna. (23) The sons of Shobal are these: Alvan, Manahath, Ebal, Shepho, and Onam. (24) These are the sons of Zibeon: Aiah and Anah. This is the Anah who found the hot springs in the wilderness as he pastured the donkeys of Zibeon his father. (25) The children of Anah are these: Dishon and Oholibamah daughter of Anah [Esau's wife]. (26) These are the sons of Dishon: Hemdan, Eshban, Ithran, and Cheran. (27) Ezer's sons are these: Bilhan, Zaavan, and Akan. (28) The sons of Dishan are these: Uz and Aran. (29) The Horite chiefs are these: Lotan, Shobal, Zibeon, Anah, (30) Dishon, Ezer, Dishan. These are the Horite chiefs, according to their clans, in the land of Seir.

FFT · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject:

luvnlife · Lion King Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 1123 Location: US

Rev said:

luvnlife · Lion King Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 1123 Location: US

Aholibamah was the daughter of Anah (Zibeons son). Aholibamah was Zibeons' grand-daughter. The verse in question says:

2 Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite;

So, as was pointed out by FFT, the second reference to 'daughter' may well have been referring to grandaughter.

Did women back then sometimes become dukes? Verse 41 states that Aholibamah was a Duke. Verse 2 states that Aholibamah was one of Esaus' wives.

41 Duke Aholibamah, duke Elah, duke Pinon,

Thanks for your help and input.

Luv

FFT · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:21 am Post subject:

"Duke" was just the KJV translators putting a "modern" spin on the word. "Chief" would be more accurate.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6828 Location: USA

Wow. Took a lot of deconstruction and research to actually see the problem...

Here's what I found though:

Anah
ā´na (ענה, 'anah, meaning uncertain; a Horite clan-name (Gen 36)):
(1) Mother of Aholibamah, one of the wives of Esau and daughter of Zibeon (compare Gen_36:2, Gen_36:14, Gen_36:18, Gen_36:25). The Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, and the Peshitta read “son,” identifying this Anah with number 3 (see below); Gen_36:2, read (החרי, ha-ḥōrī), for (החוּי, ha-ḥiwwī).
(2) Son of Seir, the Horite, and brother of Zibeon; one of the chiefs of the land of Edom (compare Gen_36:20, Gen_36:21 = 1Ch_1:38). Seir is elsewhere the name of the land (compare Gen_14:6; Isa_21:11); but here the country is personified and becomes the mythical ancestor of the tribes inhabiting it.
(3) Son of Zibeon, “This is Anah who found the hot springs in the wilderness” (compare Gen_36:24 = 1Ch_1:40, 1Ch_1:41) The word היּמים, ha-yēmīm, occurs only in this passage and is probably corrupt. Ball (Sacred Books of the Old Testament, Genesis, critical note 93) suggests that it is a corruption of והימם, we-hēmām (compare Gen_36:22) in an earlier verse. Jerome, in his commentary on Gen_36:24, assembles the following definitions of the word gathered from Jewish sources. (1) “seas” as though ימּים, yammīm; (2) “hot springs” as though חמּים, ḥammīm; (3) a species of ass, ימין, yemīn; (4) “mules.” This last explanation was the one most frequently met with in Jewish lit; the tradition ran that Anah was the first to breed the mule, thus bringing into existence an unnatural species. As a punishment, God created the deadly water-snake, through the union of the common viper with the Libyan lizard (compare Gen Rabbah 82 15, Yer. Ber 1 12b; Babylonian Pes 54a, Ginzberg, Monatschrift, XLII, 538-39).
The descent of Anah is thus represented in the three ways pointed out above as the text stands. If, however, we accept the reading בּן, ben, for בּת, bath, in the first case, Aholibamah will then be an unnamed daughter of the Anah of Gen_36:24, not the Aholibamah, daughter of Anah of Gen_36:25 (for the Anah of this verse is evidently the one of Gen_36:20, not the Anah of Gen_36:24). Another view is that the words, “the daughter of Zibeon,” are a gloss, inserted by one who mistakenly identified the Anah of Gen_36:25 with the Anah of Gen_36:24; in this event, Aholibamah, the daughter of Anah, will be the one mentioned in Gen_36:25.
The difference between (2) and (3) is to be explained on the basis of a twofold tradition. Anah was originally a sub-clan of the clan known as Zibeon, and both were “sons of Seir” - i.e. Horites.

luvnlife · Lion King Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 1123 Location: US

I found an unrelated typo by accident in my bible today.

Psalms 136:
1 O give thanks unto the LORD; or he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

This is a Thomas Nelson KJV, Copywright 2003 (Thomas Nelson, Inc).

It appears to be correct on Bible Gateway.

Luv