Prayers/Speaking to the dead confusion.

Maverick1337 · Goldfish Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 64

I've came across something in my mind that has been driving me insane the past day or so. Speaking to the deceased is obviously forbidden. I mean no disrespect to anyone by saying this.

Is praying to Mary or any of the many saints that WERE human forbidden? With Jesus the ONLY mediator between man and God, this only makes sense to me.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12; 1 Samuel 28:1-20; Isaiah 8:19;
and 1 Chronicles 10:13-14;

Typing out 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 because it hit me the hardest of them all.

1 Chronicles 10:13; So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;

1 Chronicles 10:14; And inquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

If I'm wrong in any way, I'd be more than happy to here someone out if perhaps I am missing something. Thank you in advance

~M~

Edit : Edited for the sake of the english language lol ;o

Plotinus · Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:51 am Post subject:

Hi Maverick:

The passages you mention from the OT particularly relating to Saul point to a practice that is very different from praying to a deceased person. Whatever one thinks of the idea of praying to intermediaries such as Mary, etc, it is not an occult practice: it is not the invoking of a dead spirit by the use of magic. The condemnation of Saul in the OT arises from his consultation of with user of forbidden magic.

Personally, I believe that since God is our true home, all prayers to the deceased are really prayers to God. As Wordsworth said:

"The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting and cometh from afar:
...
From God, who is our home"
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.

Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7.

james · Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:34 am Post subject:

Maverick,

The scripture that also comes to mind is Colossians 3:17 - " And whatsoever ye do in WORD or deed do ALL in the name of the Lord Jesus,..." I would suggest to you this also includes prayers, for He said do ALL in His name.

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

Maverick1337 · Goldfish Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 64

After I dug a little deeper, I found 1 Timothy 2:5.
Also my main point I guess was what this said. Not saying that its considered black magic to pray to Jesus' mother or to the saints , but better to speak directly to God through Jesus' .

1 Timothy 2:5;For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Plotinus · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:37 am Post subject:

A good choice of text, Maverick.

It is probably not worth elevating the issue to a doctrinal dispute over the efficacy of prayer through other mediators. If -- as I believe -- all prayers addressed in all directions are all really to God, then it doesn't matter. They are heard. The spirit of 1 Tim 2:1 -- "entries and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings" as the NASB has it -- is that all types of praying are good. As far as 1 Tim 2:5 is concerned, notice that the Greek word for "For" is "gar" which is notoriously slippery. The Greek also does not have any punctuation. So another interpretation (with a colon added) is

"who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth: that there is one God and one mediator ... "

In this form, the passage does not look back at the form of correct prayer, but rather forward to the spreading of the gospel.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.

Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7.

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:08 am Post subject:

I wonder who was more blessed by what happened between Saul and the woman who talked with familiar spirits?

If someone goes to the dead to talk to them, the it's the dead..unbeliever in God..who is talking to the dead.
When Saul went to her and she brought up hold on..look at her reaction..LOL

1Sa 28:7 ¶ Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, [there is] a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
1Sa 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1Sa 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

I think she was a fake..like a magician, palm reader kind of thing..LOL

1Sa 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul.

If she was expecting to "see" anything then why cry out?.

1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

If she had been truly familiar with spirits, she would have already seen this before..

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.

I think the blessing was more for the woman who knew herself she was a fake..to make her believe in God.
and maybe the reason why God sent Saul to her was to really save his life..lol..look

1Sa 28:20 ¶ Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
1Sa 28:21 And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.

I'm thinkin..Saul was humbled.. Wink

1Sa 28:22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.
1Sa 28:23 But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.
1Sa 28:24 And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded [it], and did bake unleavened bread thereof:
1Sa 28:25 And she brought [it] before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.

So, in a way God saved Saul by feeding his flesh, but his spirit paid for it later because he doubted God.
But the woman..I bet it opened her eyes..LOL..
And she did "good works" feeding the hungry, gave them lodging..

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

sometimes a story has a lot of different layers..LOL..

just tossin it on the plate.. Wink

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

atoz · Last edited by atoz on Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total

Maverick1337:
I've came across something in my mind that has been driving me insane the past day or so.
Atoz:
Hi M.

M: Speaking to the deceased is obviously forbidden.
A: Hmmmmmmmm So was JC doing what was forbidden when He spoke to the deceased Lazarus?

Or, was that ok?

M:I mean no disrespect to anyone by saying this.
Atoz: R
That's the great thing right thurr!smile

In Ceaseless & Unceasing Love,
Atoz

atoz

Maverick1337:
Is praying to Mary or any of the many saints that WERE human forbidden?

Atoz:
If they are still dead, it may be forbidden.

But suppose they are still alive?

Please read John 11:25-26,
then ask yourself:

If people who believe on JC never die,

could that mean that all the people who ever died in Christ are still alive?

In the Love that lasts because it is everlasting,
Jeremiah 31:3,
Atoz

atoz

Maverick1337:
1 Chronicles 10:13; So Saul died for his transgression which he committed

(1.)against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not,

(2.)and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;

Atoz:
There seems to be 2 sins in verse 13:

What do you think the first sin is about?

What do you think is the Word of God?

In the word Love that God is,
Atoz

eleven · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject:

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

atoz

Maverick1337,

If one of the 3 things for which God slew Saul was for consulting a witch, why didn't God slay the witch?

In the Love in which God takes life and gives life, Job 1:21-22,
Atoz

atoz · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject:

Hi Plo,

Thanx for that WW quote.

Q for u:

Why didn't God 'ditch' the witch while He slew Saul for consulting with her?

In the family spirit of Love,
Atoz

atoz · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject:

Hi James,

Since JC spoke and prayed in Love, Ephes 4:15,

and since God is Love, 1 John 4:8,

did JC pray in the name of God when and because He prayed in Love?

Stopping in the Name of Love, smile
and
praying in the name of God,
atoz