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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: america divorcing the president?... |
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http://portal.tds.net/news.php?story=36630
| article wrote: | The "Alienation Index" in a recent Harris Poll indicated the highest level of disaffection for George Bush in the seven years he has been U.S. president.
The poll shows the index for Bush increased from 54 points in 2006 to 56 in the most recent poll -- the highest level in his presidency. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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The approval ratings for the president are predictably low. Of course, Congress is even lower and has been since the last election.
The question is, what group is President Bush really in favor with?
Not the conservatives who wanted to reign in spending and secure the borders.
Not the evangelical Christians who feel duped into voting for someone who they now believe is fake.
Not liberals who believe him to be the source of all evil.
Not soldiers who have been led into a feckless battle for the first few years until Rumsfeld was finally canned. John McCain was correct in saying for those three years that the strategy was doomed to fail.
Not veterans who are now being told that the flag folding portion of military funerals is now illegal, a move approved by the White House.
Not nationalists who are hearing plans for a superhighway and a dissolution of the Canadian and Mexican borders.
Not the border defense advocates. 2 border patrol agents are in prison for doing their jobs, and Bush called the Minuteman project participants "vigilantes"
The only good thing Bush has done is to appoint 2 constructionist Supreme Court Justices. If he had suffered a fatal stroke after having done this, I'm sure he would be retrospectively viewed as a wonderful president. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Until you mentioned it I had never heard of anything but a silent folding of the flag. From what I've now read, it seems a rather overly dramatic and errant symbolism that has been interjected into this usually silent ceremony and I would not support this either. Sounds vaguely Masonic in origin.
Yes I am a veteran.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I wonder stmike, are you speaking for those groups of people, or just the individuals in those groups of people who feel the way you described?
| Quote: | | Not the conservatives who wanted to reign in spending and secure the borders. |
Border security is on the list of important issues, but certainly not a paramount issue to the majority of conservatives.
| Quote: | | Not the evangelical Christians who feel duped into voting for someone who they now believe is fake. |
The number of 'evangelical' Christians who feel 'duped' is relatively low in actuality.
| Quote: | | Not liberals who believe him to be the source of all evil |
Well... you did get this one right...
| Quote: | | Not soldiers who have been led into a feckless battle for the first few years until Rumsfeld was finally canned. |
So two out of two hundred thousand soldiers feel this way... so what?
| Quote: | | Not veterans who are now being told that the flag folding portion of military funerals is now illegal, a move approved by the White House. |
The veterans who even know about this in no way place the blame on Bush. However, just to set the record straight, the folding of the flag at a funeral is not illegal, the recitation portion of the folding ceremony in which the meaning of each fold is described has been banned in government cemeteries.
If your going to generalize something to make a non point, at least get the facts right. BTW, I've been to hundreds of funeral for veterans and active duty members and about 1% of those services actually incorporate the recitation portion of the flag folding ceremony anyway, so once again I ask: so what?
| Quote: |
Not nationalists who are hearing plans for a superhighway and a dissolution of the Canadian and Mexican borders. |
| Quote: | | Not the border defense advocates. 2 border patrol agents are in prison for doing their jobs, and Bush called the Minuteman project participants "vigilantes" |
Um.... that's what they are:
vig·i·lan·te - any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | | Bush called the Minuteman project participants "vigilantes" |
Really? That's like the one thing I can respect him for.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Here comes the Bush sycophants!
| Quote: | Quote:
Not the conservatives who wanted to reign in spending and secure the borders.
Border security is on the list of important issues, but certainly not a paramount issue to the majority of conservatives.
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Try again. Border security and the problem with illegals is the most talked about topic on every major conservative forum. Congressmen have gotten more letters from constituents about the border problem than any other issue in recent history.
| Quote: | Quote:
Not the evangelical Christians who feel duped into voting for someone who they now believe is fake.
The number of 'evangelical' Christians who feel 'duped' is relatively low in actuality.
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The number of Christians who are certain he isn't a Christian are marginal. The number of Christians who thought he was a Christian when he first ran, but are now not so sure, are in the majority. In accordance with Christian piety, few are willing to cast judgement on the man.
| Quote: | Quote:
Not soldiers who have been led into a feckless battle for the first few years until Rumsfeld was finally canned.
So two out of two hundred thousand soldiers feel this way... so what? |
I am a U.S. Army vet from 2002-2005. My battalion in Ft. Bragg was twice put on deployment alert. I can tell you from experience that the average soldier doesn't know crap about overall strategies. But among military strategists and analygists it's now axiomatic that the Rumsfeld strategy was myopic. The recent success of the surge, which McCain urged all along, can only be attributed to a change in strategy under a new Secdef.
| Quote: | Quote:
Not veterans who are now being told that the flag folding portion of military funerals is now illegal, a move approved by the White House.
The veterans who even know about this in no way place the blame on Bush. However, just to set the record straight, the folding of the flag at a funeral is not illegal, the recitation portion of the folding ceremony in which the meaning of each fold is described has been banned in government cemeteries.
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Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the issue. (yet you comment on it!) Major protests have been lodged by the VFW, the VVA, and nearly every other veterans group. Some have even pledged defiance against the new policy. And to set the record straight (for real, this time) the recitation has not been banned in public cemetaries, it's been banned from being rendered by government employees. Someone complained about the referrence to God, and you seem to think it's ok that we capitulated to them. Are you a card carrying member of the ACLU?
| Quote: | Quote:
Not the border defense advocates. 2 border patrol agents are in prison for doing their jobs, and Bush called the Minuteman project participants "vigilantes"
Um.... that's what they are:
vig·i·lan·te - any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.
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A despotic response from a mentality that people are sheep to be herded this way and that. Just because people are filling in the gap doesn't mean that they are taking the law into their own hands. The Minute Man participants do not apprehend invaders, they merely alert the border patrol. Citizens also take back their neighborhoods by conducting citizen patrols and calling the police when they detect a crime. Are they also vigilantes? And even if they did apprehend criminals, that's still doesn't fit the description because citizens' arrests are perfectly legal. So in all due respect, sir, you are wrong. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the interesting phenomenon of the president having a higher approval rating than congress, the truth is that each separate congressperson individually has a higher rating than the president but when combined into "the congress" the rating is lower. It speaks more to the organization rather than the people.
Yet the president's rating is very personal and has little to do with the white house. As a separate institution the white house has high marks, but not this particular person who lives there right now.
So lets be more honest about the congressional ratings being "lower", they really are not lower.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, Boss.
I would contend that the president and congress alike deserve their low ratings.
In the Sacred Heart of Christ |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Smdt,
Thanx for your service to the USA.
With Love,
Atoz |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Atoz,
Thank my sister, she's about to go on another deployment to Iraq. My battalion was spared deployment because we were field testing the latest rocket launcher, the HIMARS. It's the same as the mobile tracked rocket launchers you're used to seeing, but it's on a HEMMT chasis (small truck) instead of a tracked vehicle, so it's much more deployable.
I spent a year in Korea, but I never had to dodge bullets.
Saint Michael the archangel, patron saint of Fort Bragg and the 82nd Airborne Infantry Division (death from above!), defend our soldiers in battle. Amen.
Saint Michael, defend them! Amen. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | Atoz,
Thank my sister, she's about to go on another deployment to Iraq. My battalion was spared deployment because we were field testing the latest rocket launcher, the HIMARS. It's the same as the mobile tracked rocket launchers you're used to seeing, but it's on a HEMMT chasis (small truck) instead of a tracked vehicle, so it's much more deployable.
I spent a year in Korea, but I never had to dodge bullets.
Saint Michael the archangel, patron saint of Fort Bragg and the 82nd Airborne Infantry Division (death from above!), defend our soldiers in battle. Amen.
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Smdt,
thanx for sharing!
With you as her bro in everlasting agapean arms,
your sister is safer in God's everlasting agapean arms!
Deuteronomy 33:27
[b]The eternal God is thy refuge,
and
underneath are the everlasting arms:
and
he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee [& her];
and
shall say,
Destroy them.
Saint Michael, defend them! Amen.
in the agapean aisle of view,
atoz |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| mike wrote: | | Try again. Border security and the problem with illegals is the most talked about topic on every major conservative forum. Congressmen have gotten more letters from constituents about the border problem than any other issue in recent history. |
Really? You of course have some sort of report or statistics to support this assertion?
I do some work with my Congressman and a few state legislators and I can tell you that the 'border problem' is actually quite low on the list of issues they receive mail and email about.
| Quote: | | The number of Christians who are certain he isn't a Christian are marginal. The number of Christians who thought he was a Christian when he first ran, but are now not so sure, are in the majority. |
Hmmm... I wonder at what you define as 'christian'. If you refer to anyone who is not Muslim or jewish then your argument is meaningless. If you are referring to the true adopted heirs of Christ then I would say that most of them don't make judgments on another's relationship with God as you have suggested.
| Quote: | | I am a U.S. Army vet from 2002-2005. My battalion in Ft. Bragg was twice put on deployment alert. I can tell you from experience that the average soldier doesn't know crap about overall strategies |
Wow, such depth and breadth of military experience. However, your expertise not withstanding, what you said has no relevance to your earlier assertion and my rebuttal.
In the future my friend, I would suggest that you do not try to place your wealth of military experience up against a good number of board members here, including myself. Many of us have served for more years than you have lived.
| Quote: | | Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the issue. (yet you comment on it!) Major protests have been lodged by the VFW, the VVA, and nearly every other veterans group. Some have even pledged defiance against the new policy. And to set the record straight (for real, this time) the recitation has not been banned in public cemetaries, it's been banned from being rendered by government employees. |
Apparently you have difficulty understanding the written word. I said:
the recitation portion of the folding ceremony in which the meaning of each fold is described has been banned in government cemeteries.
The VFW is actually considering a pledge of defiance of the 'ban', however, since the majority of their membership is not interred at government cemeteries, or likely to have their services provided by government employees, the 'ban' would be negligible in effective persuasion. As for other 'vet' organizations... well, I serve with a few and this issue has been discussed casually if at all.
| Quote: |
Someone complained about the referrence to God, and you seem to think it's ok that we capitulated to them. Are you a card carrying member of the ACLU? |
What makes you say this? Could it be that I point out that you claim something is the case when the truth is different?
| Quote: |
Just because people are filling in the gap doesn't mean that they are taking the law into their own hands. The Minute Man participants do not apprehend invaders, they merely alert the border patrol |
| Quote: |
TUCSON, AZ -- Three volunteers patrolling the border for illegal immigrants were being investigated after a man told authorities he was held against his will and forced to pose for a picture holding a T-shirt with a mocking slogan.
The volunteers said they were members of the Minuteman Project - a monthlong effort that has people from around the country fanned out along the border to report undocumented migrants and smugglers. Law enforcement officials have said they fear the project will lead to vigilante violence |
Despite the pro's or con's of the Minuteman Project, the point is simply that President Bush expressed dislike for "vigilante" border projects. The truth of the matter is that such 'groups' breed what Bush is concerned about. Already there is reason to worry that things will get out of hand:
| Quote: | August 2007 Fake Murder Video
In August 2007 the Southern Poverty Law Center reported the surfacing of two videos which appeared to depict the murder of an illegal immigrant along the Mexico/California border by two Minuteman vigilantes.[17] These videos appeared briefly on Youtube but were removed. In this video, a figure is videotaped in night vision being shot while two narrators exchange obscene comments expressing satisfaction about doing so.
A few days later, Minuteman representatives confirmed to a San Diego TV station that the videos were made by members and that they were fake.[18] Robert "Little Dog" Crooks, who admitted making the video, said "we're old men and we're bored" and said he made the video to express a political opinion about an immigration bill being debated. |
| Quote: | | Citizens also take back their neighborhoods by conducting citizen patrols and calling the police when they detect a crime. |
That's fine, as long as that is where is stops.
| Quote: | | And even if they did apprehend criminals, that's still doesn't fit the description because citizens' arrests are perfectly legal. |
Sir, I don't think you have a clue as to what is 'perfectly legal' or not.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Wow, such depth and breadth of military experience. However, your expertise not withstanding, what you said has no relevance to your earlier assertion and my rebuttal.
In the future my friend, I would suggest that you do not try to place your wealth of military experience up against a good number of board members here, including myself. Many of us have served for more years than you have lived.
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Really? Do you know how long I've lived? I also served in the Army for 2 years in 1993 just to give you an idea of the scope of my life. One does not need to run into many soldiers to understand that soldiers in general don't grasp the big picture when it comes to military strategy. That isn't a slight of them, there is no expectation of them other than a focus on training and physical fitness. If you've served, then you know this is true. Moreover, it doesn't matter how long someone has served, it matters only that they served.
| Quote: | | Despite the pro's or con's of the Minuteman Project, the point is simply that President Bush expressed dislike for "vigilante" border projects. The truth of the matter is that such 'groups' breed what Bush is concerned about. Already there is reason to worry that things will get out of hand: |
First of all, Bush does not need to worry about what private citizen groups are doing in a free country. Only a totalitarian would be worried about this. Secondly, you admit that thousands of volunteers are patrolling the border to help route illegal invaders, yet maintain that this is a non-issue on the political landscape. You can't have it both ways. Arguing that border security is not important to conservatives is just as silly as saying abortion is not important to liberals. Apparently, you're not paying attention.
| Quote: | | In August 2007 the Southern Poverty Law Center reported the surfacing of two videos which appeared to depict the murder of an illegal immigrant along the Mexico/California border by two Minuteman vigilantes.[17] These videos appeared briefly on Youtube but were removed. In this video, a figure is videotaped in night vision being shot while two narrators exchange obscene comments expressing satisfaction about doing so. |
I am not the least bit impressed by any report from the Southern Poverty Law Center which has been shamelessly conducive to illegal invaders and has even helped illegal drug runners successfully sue a ranch owner and take over ownership of the ranch in U.S. court. The SPLC is a wicked organization whose atrocities have earned them a reservation in the eternal lake of fire. If you want me to take you seriously, please don't ever quote what they say as fact. (like getting health tips from Willy Wonka)
| Quote: | Quote:
And even if they did apprehend criminals, that's still doesn't fit the description because citizens' arrests are perfectly legal.
Sir, I don't think you have a clue as to what is 'perfectly legal' or not.
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Excuse me? I have made citizens' arrests, have you? In many states it's even a felony for a police officer to refuse custody of a suspect arrested by citizens. This really bothers you, doesn't it......freedom and liberty, and those who exercise it? I bet it bothers you that citizens can do nearly everything that cops can do, and that our country was made and defined by rugged individuals. Does jury nullification bother you as well? How about the right for private citizens to carry guns....is that a burr in your saddle?
If I'm reading you right, and by now I think I am, your mentality is exactly the one that we fought against to gain our freedom as a nation. Because your type will always exist, so will the need to guard and promote our liberties at all cost. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, Rev, I love you and everyone here, even when the vitriol sometimes runs thick. 
Benedicta tu in mulieribus |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | First of all, Bush does not need to worry about what private citizen groups are doing in a free country. Only a totalitarian would be worried about this. |
By this logic we don't need police, government regulations, or anything of the sort do we? Just let people and groups of people do what they want, yes?
| Quote: | Secondly, you admit that thousands of volunteers are patrolling the border to help route illegal invaders, yet maintain that this is a non-issue on the political landscape.
...Arguing that border security is not important to conservatives is just as silly as saying abortion is not important to liberals. Apparently, you're not paying attention. |
Where did I admit to 'thousands of volunteers'? and where did I say it was a 'non-issue'? I stated that it was not, what I said was:
| Quote: | | Border security is on the list of important issues, but certainly not a paramount issue to the majority of conservatives. |
Apparently you are not paying attention.
| Quote: | | I am not the least bit impressed by any report from the Southern Poverty Law Center which has been shamelessly conducive to illegal invaders and has even helped illegal drug runners successfully sue a ranch owner and take over ownership of the ranch in U.S. court. The SPLC is a wicked organization whose atrocities have earned them a reservation in the eternal lake of fire. If you want me to take you seriously, please don't ever quote what they say as fact. (like getting health tips from Willy Wonka) |
So, what you are basically saying is that reports of the very thing Bush et al stated as concerns for the activities of such 'volunteer' groups should simply be dismissed because you don't like the organization that reported the incident? Perhaps we should dismiss the videos of police brutality simply because we don't like the person who filmed it?
| Quote: |
Excuse me? I have made citizens' arrests, have you? In many states it's even a felony for a police officer to refuse custody of a suspect arrested by citizens. This really bothers you, doesn't it......freedom and liberty, and those who exercise it? I bet it bothers you that citizens can do nearly everything that cops can do, and that our country was made and defined by rugged individuals. Does jury nullification bother you as well? How about the right for private citizens to carry guns....is that a burr in your saddle? |
All of this is purely irrelevant. What I stated was that you do not have a clue as to what is 'perfectly legal' in this regards. The assumptions and accusations you made here have no bearing on the evidence that you have not provided to demonstrate anything different.
| Quote: | | If I'm reading you right, and by now I think I am, your mentality is exactly the one that we fought against to gain our freedom as a nation. Because your type will always exist, so will the need to guard and promote our liberties at all cost. |
If you were reading me right, and it is painfully obvious that you are not; you would understand that I am pointing out that your facts are wrong and rather than address that truth you choose to make assumptions about me and what I think rather than readdress your errors.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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