Acceptable losses

45degreeN · Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: Acceptable losses

At what level are the losses in Iraq unequal to the possible gains? Would you like to be the officer writing to the widow or mother telling her that she suffered "acceptable" losses in her brother, son, father?

Will loss of international prestige and respect count toward those acceptable losses?

Will becoming the international target of all terrorists an acceptable loss?

Will changing our country into some sort of dictatorship/ fortress become an acceptable loss?

Will becoming the world leader in torture be a loss or a gain in this respect?

Will not having our national guard around to fight fires an acceptable loss?

At what level of loss is it no longer worth the fight in Iraq? Bush called this war a war between civilizations yet has attempted to fight it with the smallest possible forces on the ground, in the cheapest possible way.

If we had spent the whole amount of money (that we spent on the war)on alternative fuels the whole oil issue would blow away and the middle east would stop being so important. So we are losing in that area also.

What are our acceptable level of losses?
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RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1512

in ref to RevJPs comments...yep.

In ref to 45degree's, Reality has no bearing on the anti-war left's position.
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45degreeN · Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:49 am Post subject:

OK so we'll all "sich heil" to Bush and go on our merry way. The days of the new Roman Empire are on us. Our very own thousand year Reich.

Sadly Bush is just laughable and those who fall into line with him are just following orders.
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Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1512

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

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Plotinus · Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:01 am Post subject:

45degreeN · Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:31 am Post subject:

Bush and his co conspirators the neo-cons have chosen to use fear as a means to maintain their positions of power, and I will continue to refuse to fall for those tactics in choosing my elected officials.

Primarily it seems Rudi Guiliani is the candidate who is continuing to primarily use these tactics in the coming election most of the rest of the Republican candidates have some lesser variation of the same message of fear.

Unfortunately for the Republican party America has always been a very optimistic country and has historically rejected the tactics of fear as a means of deciding their elections.

Remember even Rome began as a republic until her politicians began the use of fear to control their policies.
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saintmichaeldefendthem · Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:47 am Post subject:

Heya Boss,

The reason I became a Libertarian is because the socialist left wants to take my money to give to all their social programs. The conservative right wants to take my money to build up a military empire to control the world.

And I don't care if the neocons don't like the word "imperialism" thrown at them. We have bases all over the world to control the world, just like every empire has ever done.

The problem I have with the anti-war left is that they would rather we fight for tyranny in this country than to fight for freedom in another. All their socialist programs are geared toward making us slaves of revived communism in this country.

And, boss, I have to break the bad news, it's our obsession with the 2 party system that enables the continuance of monarchial arrogance. If people really want to change this country, it starts by voting for 3rd party candidates instead of the "lesser of 2 evils". Contrary to popular opinion, the ones that keep voting for donkeys and elephants are the ones "throwing away" their votes. I vote Libertarian because I want change, not business as usual.

Libertarians would reign in all the military bases we have in Germany, Japan, Korea, Italy, etc. Libertarians propose that a military is for defense only, not to control the world. Trying to force democracy on 3rd world nations is the height of arrogance. A response to 9/11 was surely warranted, but one that focuses completely on U.S. defense. We should have formulated a "excrement" list and pounded mercilessly every member of that roster, including Saudi Arabia. We would have been home in less than 2 years and the world will have gained a new found awe and respect for us. (and the Saudis would still sell us their oil) I really don't care if the world loves us or not, but they better think twice before striking us again.

But now we are bogged down in Iraq, fully engaged in the expensive, bloody, time consuming task of planting a democracy, while the perpetrators of 9/11 still laugh at us and send their vids from caves in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The "moveon.org" left would have us pull out before the job is complete. The only leftist voice of reason is Hillary Clinton,saying we must see this through and then pull out. You think we lack respect in the world? Think of how it would be viewed if we pulled out now:

For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it

lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,

saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish." Lk 14:28-30

We've laid the foundation, now we better ignore the loony Left and make sure we finish what we started.

Dominus Flevit

45degreeN · Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject:

It surprises me no end the times we agree SMDT.

I've voted Libertarian the last eight years and I guess that qualifies me a long term Libertarian (well maybe not)?

Being vested in our society instead of in God means that we seek human approval not God's approval. But being vested in society means we have a lot to lose if things dont go our way. Which may be the reason why so many of the politicians use such extreme rhetoric instead of appealing to our intellect. They fear losing their grip on social controls and think that some horrible disaster will come if their grip is loosened. Preferring something known for something unknown. They accept the status quo in which they are so highly invested and in which they think they can be in control.

In reality God is control and the only fear we have should have is fear of God. Not fearing the Muslims, or the communists but fearing to fall short of the glory of God.

As a Libertarian I am not vested in this political system and therefore free of its inherent evils both on the left and the right. As I suspect you are also.
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RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Well, seeing some of the rubbish being spouted by those claiming the mantel of 'libertarian' I can see why the 2 party system has persisted in this country.

Imagine putting someone into office that has such a truthless and senseless view of the things in the world... Rolling Eyes

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saintmichaeldefendthem · Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject:

Rev,

The 2 party system abides because of the lemming mentality of most Americans. A vote for Democrats or Republicans is a vote for imperialism or socialism. It all amounts to tyranny.

Thomas Jefferson thought we should have a revolution every 20 years. History bears this out as personal liberty has been eroded to the point of being considered privelige based. Taxes are one of the worst forms of it too. A man who is not free to spend his own money that he earned is a man not free. I'm not talking about taxes to support the basic functions of government, but the bulk of other things the government does that it should not be doing.

And it's a sad day, with so many good men who have given their lives to vouchsafe our freedom, that the thirst for liberty has become so rare, and people who embrace tyranny and scoff at freedom lovers are so many.

So, you can go on back to Egypt, Rev. I've got different plans.

FFT · Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:34 am Post subject:

45degreeN · Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:32 am Post subject:

I remember the millennium bug situation and the scenarios painted by the Clinton bashers how they foresaw the potential for eliminating elections through Emergency powers given the possible breakdown of multiple systems of our infrastructure.

Well it didn't happen and I seriously doubt Bush will fail to step down. Even though I have participated in some of the Imperial America talk the country hasn't made that much of a downward spiral that it might fail to exercise its electoral processes.

Still the idea occurred to some people so maybe it filled Bush's fantasy life.
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FFT · Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:27 am Post subject:

Well the country's sitting idly by despite all the voter disenfranchisement the right is implementing because for no apparent reason the "liberal media" is refusing to report it.
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