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Christian Surname
Tadpole
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 18
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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:53 am Post subject: Muhammad's religion |
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| What was Muhammad's religion before inventing Islam? Is there any record of what Jewish and Christian documents he used to form this mish-mash? How did he convince other people that God is hate? |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Q: What was Muhammad's religion before inventing Islam?
A: Pagan? or anyone of a number of sun or moon worshipping religions common at the time. Interesting that you use the word "inventing"...so, Mohammed created Islam as apposed to it being revealed to him by Gabriel? In the west, we call that a Freudian slip ;0
Q: Is there any record of what Jewish and Christian documents he used to form this mish-mash?
A: Yes, it's called the Torah and the Bible, though the Bible wasn't exactly in its present form...probably still mainly oral tradition...as was Islam.
Q: How did he convince other people that God is hate?
A: By and large, he killed them (or directed others to have them killed) and said God told him to do it.
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad's religion |
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| Christian Surname wrote: | | What was Muhammad's religion before inventing Islam? |
He grown up within people who worship status of some good people that they believe they can help them.
| Christian Surname wrote: | | Is there any record of what Jewish and Christian documents he used to form this mish-mash? |
Mohamed never learned reading or writing. He never met Christians or Jewish before he became a profit. He grown up in ignorant people where a few who can read or write.
This is evidence that he is a profit as he has all the knowledge without help or copying from other books. Arabs were isolated people from the Rome, Persia, Indian wisdom and knowledge . how come a man can invent all of this religion on his own . The answer is it’s from Allah
| Christian Surname wrote: | | How did he convince other people that God is hate? |
He convinced people as :-
• He was truly, honest, sincerely, brave, love people
• He was example of all good attitude
• He was truly
• He directed people to worship one God who created the world , unique, no son, no daughter, no wife… nothing like him
• And last but not least he was supported from Allah
For all of the above people believed in him till now. We never find :-
• He ordered us to do something bad
• He always ordered us to do what is good for life and last day
• We never found any contradiction between Quran and since
…..
I hope I answered your questions. |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | Q: What was Muhammad's religion before inventing Islam?
A: Pagan? |
Mohamed grown in people who worships status but he never did, he never share them in their religion from his first days
| Pondering wrote: | | Interesting that you use the word "inventing"...so, Mohammed created Islam as apposed to it being revealed to him by Gabriel? In the west, we call that a Freudian slip ;0 |
I disagree with you. No one is intelligent enough to invent a religion like Islam. If this is true why didn’t we see many Islams since 1500 years?
| Pondering wrote: | Q: Is there any record of what Jewish and Christian documents he used to form this mish-mash?
A: Yes, it's called the Torah and the Bible, though the Bible wasn't exactly in its present form...probably still mainly oral tradition...as was Islam. |
Your answer is wrong as Mohamed never learnt reading/writing never learnt Torah or bible
| Pondering wrote: | Q: How did he convince other people that God is hate?
A: By and large, he killed them (or directed others to have them killed) and said God told him to do it. |
Wrong as if he did so, there will not be Moslems . millions of Moslems now in the world that they never seen an Islamic army like far east and middle, south Africa.. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad's religion |
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| Abdelaleem wrote: |
....Mohamed never learned reading or writing. He never met Christians or Jewish before he became a profit. He grown up in ignorant people where a few who can read or write.
This is evidence that he is a profit as he has all the knowledge without help or copying from other books. Arabs were isolated people from the Rome, Persia, Indian wisdom and knowledge . how come a man can invent all of this religion on his own . The answer is it’s from Allah
....
He convinced people as :-
• He was truly, honest, sincerely, brave, love people
• He was example of all good attitude
• He was truly
• He directed people to worship one God who created the world , unique, no son, no daughter, no wife… nothing like him
• And last but not least he was supported from Allah
For all of the above people believed in him till now. We never find :-
• He ordered us to do something bad
• He always ordered us to do what is good for life and last day
• We never found any contradiction between Quran and since
…..
I hope I answered your questions. |
Good answers, Abdelaleem!
with all Love and Respect,
atoz |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Abdelaleem wrote: | | Mohamed never learned reading or writing. ... He grown up in ignorant people where a few who can read or write. |
The son of a merchant never learned to read or write?
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | He never met Christians or Jewish before he became a profit. |
He didn't become a prophet until he was 40. He stayed in Mecca for most of the time prior. Mecca was a major caravan trading point, since it was an intersection of several major trade routes. How would he have not come into contact with Judaic or Christian ideas before he turned 40?
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | This is evidence that he is a profit as he has all the knowledge without help or copying from other books. |
More evidence that you'll come up with apologetics without actually doing any research.
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | Arabs were isolated people from the Rome, Persia, Indian wisdom and knowledge . |
No they weren't, Rome controlled northern Arabia. I don't see how Persia or India are particularly relevant, though.
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | how come a man can invent all of this religion on his own . |
Well it wasn't all on his own, as one can clearly see—if one is going with the assumption that he did create it. There's no way to claim that he had no experience with Abrahamic ideas in his 40 years of life prior to propheteering.
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | The answer is it’s from Allah |
No more so than Mormonism is.
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | I disagree with you. No one is intelligent enough to invent a religion like Islam. If this is true why didn’t we see many Islams since 1500 years? |
There have been plenty, thousands easily. Most are simply not successful. You could look at Mormonism, for example.
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | Your answer is wrong as Mohamed never learnt reading/writing never learnt Torah or bible |
You keep saying this, and while I understand why you're going to have to actually justify it if you want anyone to take you seriously.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry to break post just wanted to get on as watching the discussion. |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Dear FFT,
Let us agree on something. When I say something I expose my knowledge and thoughts as a Moslem. If you ask me for evidence I’ve thousands (especially in Arabic) . if I put this evidences in front of you. Will you accept it? I doubt.
So if you don’t accept my answers:-
• You’ve to refer to a source which is accepted from me. If you simply have one of the books written in hate against Islam and Mohamed without references. There are thousands that say he did that, he never did this… which are full of lies
• Also, don’t challenge the environment of Arabs without knowledge. I’ll explain in the coming lines the environment Mohamed grown up in
• There is no written history of Arabs in Mecca
• Nobody can pertain knowledge of Arabs history before Islam
• The only way to record history of Arabs is the Poems
• So, when Islamic resources say “Mohamed can’t read or write”. No respectable resource can say the opposite
The Mecca before Islam and Mohamed before becoming a profit when he was 40 years old:-
• Mecca was centre for Arabs only ,
• Trading lines:-
o Mecca Arabs go to north to Romans provinces for trading
o Mecca Arabs go North East to Persian provinces for trading
o Mecca Arabs go to south to Yemen for trading
o During pilgrims, all Arabs go to Mecca
o Mecca Arabs do trading with the rest of Arabs
• Arabs were worshipping status, killing…
• More details about Mohamed:-
o He went once when he was a child, he has been identified by Christian Monk. The Monk sews the signs of profit. He asked his uncle to protect him and take him back to Mecca
o He went to north for trading 2-3 times for one month each
o No one can pertain that he has learnt Torah and Gospels at that time
Even if I say, he learnt Torah and Gospels. These are not good sources for Islam. Why:-
• Islam is in disagreement with Judaic religion in a matter that “Jews are not the people of Allah any more”
• Islam is in disagreement with Christianity in the Christ identification and history . Islam sees Christ :-
o A normal person without a father
o A normal profit
o Jews or Romans couldn’t put him in the cross at all
So, he is in disagreement with both. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Abdelaleem wrote: | | He never met Christians or Jewish before he became a profit. |
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | He went once when he was a child, he has been identified by Christian Monk. The Monk sews the signs of profit. He asked his uncle to protect him and take him back to Mecca |
Reconcile these, please.
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | He went to north for trading 2-3 times for one month each |
Then why are you saying he had no contact with Romans?
| Abdelaleem wrote: | Even if I say, he learnt Torah and Gospels. These are not good sources for Islam. Why:-
• Islam is in disagreement with Judaic religion in a matter that “Jews are not the people of Allah any more”
• Islam is in disagreement with Christianity in the Christ identification and history . Islam sees Christ :- |
So? This sort of thing has a long tradition. Judaism split from an older religion, choosing a single God to worship. Christianity was created out of Judaism with the belief that Christ was the Messiah.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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go FFT...and for what it's worth...Ditto 
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Abdelaleem wrote: | | He never met Christians or Jewish before he became a profit. |
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | He went once when he was a child, he has been identified by Christian Monk. The Monk sews the signs of profit. He asked his uncle to protect him and take him back to Mecca |
Reconcile these, please. |
No, contradiction. I put this on purpose to approve to you that you don’t have any resources for your claim. So, I put the general and then detailed it
| FFT wrote: |
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | He went to north for trading 2-3 times for one month each |
Then why are you saying he had no contact with Romans? |
See answer above. I’m showing my honesty in detailing what you don’t know about him. It was for trading in big market not for learning or coping Torah and Gospels
| FFT wrote: | | So? This sort of thing has a long tradition. Judaism split from an older religion, choosing a single God to worship. Christianity was created out of Judaism with the belief that Christ was the Messiah. |
You’re totally wrong even for Judaism and Christianity. There is no split. Our vision as Moslems for Moses, Christ, and Mohamed:-
• They’re all profits from one God
• They asked people to worship the unique, no one like him, no son, no relatives, almighty, creator…
• They’ve all one message
• This message is Islam
So, no split. What really happened is that :-
• Jews didn’t follow Moses commands, deviation from the original
• Allah sent many profits Zachariah, John, and lastly Christ
• Christians started Unitarian
• Paul and then Nicaea took Christianity out of the straight path
• All sent his last messenger/profit Mohamed to everyone with the final and last message
• They’re all have the same message
This is the whole story in summary. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Abdelaleem wrote: | | No, contradiction. I put this on purpose to approve to you that you don’t have any resources for your claim. So, I put the general and then detailed it |
Do you have any justification for the idea that he never ran into Jews or Christians before becoming a prophet beyond tradition?
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | See answer above. I’m showing my honesty in detailing what you don’t know about him. It was for trading in big market not for learning or coping Torah and Gospels |
So? Like he wouldn't have seen street proselytizers?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Do you have any justification for the idea that he never ran into Jews or Christians before becoming a prophet beyond tradition? |
It’s not about justification. It’s about evidences. As I told you before in Quran and in his history (Hadith). It’s well known that he can’t read or write. In Hadith there is everything about him, his birth, his childhood, his travels, marriage, friend, fellowships, wars, even his messages to kings. Every bit and peace. You can imagine that Moslems documented even how he dress, sleep, eat, drink…
There is nothing about he learnt reading and writing or Torah or Gospels or wisdom .
Some ideas not a justification:-
• Only few persons in all Mecca who can read and write at that time , it’s documented by their names
• He lost his father and mother, he was poor. So, he doesn’t have the resources to learn. He worked when he was a child as a sheep boy and then in trading
• Arabs were not interested in other cultures Romans, Persian, or Indian wisdom
• It was an ignorant society
| FFT wrote: | | he wouldn't have seen street proselytizers? |
No we didn’t have any Hadith about this. Let us discuss it.
You either trust Hadith or not. Sure you’re not. Thus is the only source. No other sources. We can’t suppose Romans documented this as he was not knows during his 2-3 visits.
I believe there are proselytizers in these markets.
What this can prove? You can’t say during 2-3 discrete months he’ll
• Learn reading/writing without his companions in the journey can notice him
• Learn Torah and Gosples
• He sets his mind to invent a new religion to oppose those existing. Logically he’ll start breaching after he learns
Also, his last visit when he was 25 years. But angel Gabriel come to him when he was 40 years.
Why waiting all that time?
How he can hide his intension on all surrounding people?...
Also the history of the coming days shows exactly that the Quran and Islam are from Allah |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Abdelaleem wrote: | | You either trust Hadith or not. Sure you’re not. Thus is the only source. No other sources. |
Then I don't trust it. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.
One source? That exists to justify someone's prophethood?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
One source? That exists to justify someone's prophethood? |
Sorry I didn't understand you from the beginning. then you want sources and evidences that Mohamed is a profit?
Ok, I'll search for English ones |
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