Divine revelation vs. human wisdom

sandra3102 · Kitten Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 138

How do we distinguish “divine revelation” from “human wisdom”?

It looks like Christianity is divided because, instead of divine revelation from the word of God, it is human wisdom that made people believe differently about the word of God.

What do you think?

Schuckdaddy

sandra3102 · Kitten Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 138

Absolutely! Great! Bull's eye!

If only we have this attitude surely God will lead us to the real message of His words. How many people hate these taboos?

How can we avoid the great temptation of depending on other people's understanding/interpretation?

* Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

How can we control ourselves not trying to understand the word of God, that according to Him, He is speaking "spiritual things?"

* Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Who among us is not a victim of our feeling or emotion so as to accept the bitter truth in the word of God?

* Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Greetings Sandra,

There is so much wisdom in your reply, but no one dares say they know what the Bible says. After all, the theologians have been trying to figure it out for centuries and for a layman to say he understands is just nonscence to most all people.

I made a statement in one of my replies that I felt that I had mastered the book of Hebrews and got a warning back. It has taken me 30 years to master the book and no one wants to hear. No one can hear. I read no other books and have not leaned on another man for understanding of the scriptures.

No, what I have learned does not jive with any of the church doctrine out there so what I have to say is basically ignored.

The reason that the scriptures are still a mystery is because of false doctrine and pride. After all how can you say that you are wrong if you are a Sunday school teacher, or a Pastor. Some peoples lively hood depend on Church doctrine and you are not welcome where you are not in agreement.

It is my conclusion that it is just to much fun to debate and strive with man.

I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening, even if it is only for a moment.

In Christ, Judy

45degreeN · Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:38 am Post subject:

The Bible is ambiguous in some places, provides evidence for both positions in some other issues and just doesn't speak to still other issues. That is why we have disagreements that split us into differing camps.

It is the "need for certainty" that drives these centuries long debates that will never be settled. Ultimately though it is not our righteousness that counts, it is Christ's that counts. We can be "right" and still miss out since we dont have love for our fellow man.

An oft repeated phrase from my theology teacher is relevant, Faith is 90% courage, 9% persistence, and 1% all the rest. If we agree on 99% of the important stuff, then the 1% can be settled when we get to heaven. I hold very very few dogmatic positions, things that are so essential that they must be part of the Christian experience. All the rest is held loosely with grace given to those who disagree.

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Greetings Sandra,

You asked about the difference between worldly wisdom and Godly wisdom.

Quote:45degreeN

Schuckdaddy · Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject:

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Greetings Schuck,

I believe that the scriptures can be understood, but to have an understanding you have to believe what it says.

The scriptures do not compromise and they are not ambiguous.

I will give you an example:

The scriptures say that Christ died for the sins of the world. Popular doctrine says he is a personal savior.

Christ cannot be the savior of the world and a personal savior. Personal means individual and both Jew and Gentile were included at the cross.

No where in the Bible is the word 'personal' even mentioned, nontheless Christ being the savior of the world is ignored and a 1000 wordly reasons are given why He is not

Too bad, because on that doctrine alone stems most of the churches false doctrines.

In Christ, Judy

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6817 Location: USA

Nana, you might want to provide some scripture in support of that last assertion.

MoJo · Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject:

45degreeN · Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:37 am Post subject:

Nana I certainly find some issues very ambiguous. God does not explain Himself very clearly for example and there is evidence for the trinitarian doctrine and the unitarian doctrine.

Both of these by the way hold tightly to them and will argue forever on whichever they believe. For a human to truly understand God we need to be equal with God and no one is equal. The scripture only provides some evidence though, not conclusive declarative statements, therefore some logical conclusions must be made.

By the way dogmas are not explanations from God, they are human made declarative statements not scripture, and they are used for determining whether another human is inside or outside of orthodoxy. While I do respect them as historical attempts at understanding God, I dont accept them as determinitive. We cannot tell God what He is like, that is simply stupid.

Other issues like the communion are ambiguous about the "flesh and blood" which has divided the church for millenia also. Many declare them symbols but others claim they are literal. There is no solution for this dilemma either until we get to heaven and ask God Himself. Again dogmas are not proof.

Lastly, there are many things that never existed during the first century AD and therefore nothing in scripture can tell us for certain what God would say, unless you accept modern day prophecy (which is another separate issue). Logical conclusions can be made about them though which are man made and likely right. God gave us a brain you know for making such decisions.

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Greetings RevJP,

I will be happy to supply you with many verses that support what I said.

If John the Baptist were alive today he would certainly be in disagreement with the "Christ is a personal savior" doctrine. You will note in the following verses that sin in the flesh was not taken on an individual basis, but that the sacrificed of Christ for the remission of sin was done for the whole world.

I John 2:2, "And he is the propitation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

John 1:29, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the SIN OF THE WORLD."

You have probably heard or read over and over verses in the Bible that declare Christ to be the savior of the world and had not realized that 'savior of the world' and personal savior' are a contradiction to each other.

John 4:42, ".l..for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

Taking away the sin of the world and Christ being a personal savior are poles apart. You cannot find personal savior anywhere in the scriptures, but Christ taking away the sin of the world is everywhere.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world"

John 18:20, "Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."

The list continues and I would be happy to quote them all for you if you like.

Perhaps this is a difficult concept because another false doctrine is that Christ only took our past sins, but it doesn't say that either, it says sins are past.

Respectfully in Christ, Judy

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Hi Mojo,

The OT is a completely different ball game than New. The New Covenant says:

Hebrews 10:10, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD; FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST."

Yes, God supplies our daily needs and answers our personal prayers, but as for dealing with the sin of the world, that was not personal.

Personally I love God, and God's eyes are over the righteous, but as for sin in the flesh, it was done one time once and for all for both the Jews and the Gentiles (the world).

Can you for one moment even imagine that Christ has forgiven the world of all sins in the flesh and that God does not see sin. Has it ever occurred to you that that is what the New Testament is all about.

Until one see this then one will never understand what the Bible is saying.

Respectfully In Christ, Judy

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Greetings 45,

The word may be ambiguous to you but it is not to me.

God did not give us a book He does not expect us to understand, to think that He would, well that to me is stupid.

Paul had revelation after revelation from God and those revelations are recorded in his Epistles. Paul says:

Eph 1:17-19, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: They eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power."

I knew from the onset that God would reveal his wisdom to me because I believed his Word that said He would. Only a fool would think that He wouldn't.

Would your earthly father write you a letter to save your life and then not expect you to understand? I think not. How much more our heavenly Father careth for you!

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." It is time that we awaken out of a deep sleep. We are the Son of God.

In Christ, Judy

sandra3102 · Kitten Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 138

My brethren, I enjoy reading all your posts that indeed we recognize divine revelation as the TRUTH in the WORD. The hindrance to obtaining it are the following taboos that seem impossible to leave behind.

The curse for trusting men:

* Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

The folly of leaning to our own understanding:

* Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

The temptation being influenced by feeling or emotion:

• Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

What virtue have we forgotten in yearning for divine knowledge and wisdom?

• Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, LET HIM ASK OF GOD, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
• Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
• Jam 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
• Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Do we not reject the following because this is anathema to our mind and feeling?

1 Joh 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.