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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Obama: My Answer on Abortion at Saddleback Too Flip |
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| Quote: | On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., expressed regret at his answer on abortion at Rick Warren's Saddleback Church a couple weekends ago.
"At what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?" Warren asked.
"I think that, whether you’re looking at it from the theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade," Obama said -- an answer that offended some people.
"Was that phrase too flip?" Stephanopoulos asked Obama today.
"Probably," Obama said. "Yes. I mean, what I intended to say is that, as a Christian, I have a lot of humility about understanding when does the soul enter into…"
"It goes back to Augustine," Stephanopoulos interjected.
"It does," Obama said. "It's a pretty tough question. And so, all I meant to communicate was that I don't presume to be able to answer these kinds of theological questions. What I do know is that abortion is a moral issue, that it's one that families struggle with all the time, and that in wrestling with those issues, I don't think that the government criminalizing the choices that families make is the best answer for reducing abortions." |
Link
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"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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It turns out that ensoulment is a very old issue. I found this article very interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: |
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P#s...Matt joined after you'd kinda disappeared. he tends to post/link to "interesting" news articles....
I happen to agree with O'bama on this...the bigger point is that it took him 2 weeks to "clarify"....Not only was his original answer terrible, his current one is heavily "nuanced".....he's trying to appeal the center without ticking off the extreme left. That's impossible.
to me, it shows that he lacks the Courage of his Convictions...
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Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | P#s...Matt joined after you'd kinda disappeared. he tends to post/link to "interesting" news articles.... |
Just trying to stimulate discussion. I find the stories I post/link interesting but I understand that what interests me will not necessarily interest everyone.
| Quote: | | ....Not only was his original answer terrible, his current one is heavily "nuanced".....he's trying to appeal the center without ticking off the extreme left. That's impossible. |
I haven't seen the taped interview. Stephanopoulos comes across in the transcript as a boxer carrying a dazed and confused sparring partner.
I agree with McCain on when life begins.
_________________
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: |
I agree with McCain on when life begins. |
How can you say this? If you want to talk about when *life* begins, it's a scientific fact that both sperm and egg cells are alive. So life begins before conception.
The real question is when souls enter the body. That's the only important question here. If you believe that the soul enters the body at conception, then why do you believe this?
Also, does this mean that you are against stem cell research?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | How can you say this? If you want to talk about when *life* begins, it's a scientific fact that both sperm and egg cells are alive. So life begins before conception. |
A human life begins when the sperm and the egg are united.
| Quote: | | The real question is when souls enter the body. That's the only important question here. If you believe that the soul enters the body at conception, then why do you believe this? |
I do not believe that the soul enters the body at conception. At conception, a person becomes a soul.
| Quote: | | Also, does this mean that you are against stem cell research? |
No.
_________________
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | So does Joe Biden. |
Then I agree with McCain and Biden on this point. 
_________________
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: |
A human life begins when the sperm and the egg are united.
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And what if we cloned a human? When does life begin in that case?
| Mattathias wrote: |
I do not believe that the soul enters the body at conception. At conception, a person becomes a soul.
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There was a person present before conception?
| Mattathias wrote: |
| Quote: | | Also, does this mean that you are against stem cell research? |
No. |
Is it ok to kill embryos?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | And what if we cloned a human? When does life begin in that case? |
Don't ask me. I'm anti-clone.
| Quote: | | There was a person present before conception? |
No. Conception brings a person into being.
| Quote: | | Is it ok to kill embryos? |
No.
_________________
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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So if the stem cell research involves killing embryos, then should this research be allowed?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | So if the stem cell research involves killing embryos, then should this research be allowed? |
Unless I'm mistaken, stem cell research is possible without killing embryos.
If killing embryos is required then I would be opposed to stem cell research. If it can be done without killing embryos then I would be in favor of it.
_________________
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | So if the stem cell research involves killing embryos, then should this research be allowed? |
Unless I'm mistaken, stem cell research is possible without killing embryos.
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Yes, now it is.
| Mattathias wrote: |
If killing embryos is required then I would be opposed to stem cell research. |
Here's an interesting factoid for you: A 3 day-old embryo contains something like 150 cells, and none of them are nerve cells yet. By contrast, the brain of a fly contains more than 150,000 nerve cells.
So by any objective criterion, every time you swat a fly, you are causing infinitely more suffering than when an embryo is destroyed.
Shouldn't swatting flies be outlawed?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Here's an interesting factoid for you: A 3 day-old embryo contains something like 150 cells, and none of them are nerve cells yet. By contrast, the brain of a fly contains more than 150,000 nerve cells.
So by any objective criterion, every time you swat a fly, you are causing infinitely more suffering than when an embryo is destroyed.
Shouldn't swatting flies be outlawed? |
If they stay out of my home they needn't fear my swatter.
_________________
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'" (Galatians 3:8 NASB) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: |
If they stay out of my home they needn't fear my swatter. |
Do you think it should be illegal to swat flies?
Do you think it should be illegal to destroy embryos?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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