Col. 2:9 and Eph. 3:19

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9, NASB).

"and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God" (Eph. 3:19, NASB).

Colossians 2:9 is often used by Trinitarians to support the doctrine that Jesus is God in flesh. It clearly states that in Jesus, deity dwells. What is interesting about this verse is that it contains a word used only once in the entire Bible: "deity." Deity means, "The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity." This verse states that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of God, or all the fullness of the condition of being divine.
However, critics of the doctrine of Jesus' deity will go to Eph. 3:19 which says something similar but not identical to Col. 2:9. It says". . . that you [the Christians] may be filled up to all the fullness of God." These verses are similar and opponents of the Trinity will attempt to use Ephesians to deny that Colossians 2:9 states that Jesus is God. They rightly observe that Eph. 3:19 says that Christians are filled with the fullness of God. They then reason that if we are filled with the fullness of God and we are not divine, then when Col. 2:9 says that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of deity, then neither is He divine.
One of the mistakes in the assumption that Eph. 3:19 interprets or clarifies Col. 2:9 is the failure to read the verses in context. After all, the verses are in different books. Without looking at the context of both, it isn't proper to simply quote the two in juxtaposition and make a pronouncement that Col. 2:9 does not mean Jesus is God because of a slightly similar usage of words in Eph. 3:19. Therefore, let's look at the context of each.

* Colossians 2
o v. 2 true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself
o v. 4, that no one deceive you with persuasive arguments
o v. 6, walk in Christ
o v. 7, rooted and built up in Jesus
o v. 8, see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy.
o v. 9, for in Jesus dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form.
* Ephesians 3
o v. 1, Paul a prisoner of Christ.
o v. 3, By revelation, Paul received knowledge of 'the mystery.'
o v. 6, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body
o v. 10, in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known
o v. 14, Paul prays for the Ephesians
o v. 16, that God would strengthen them with power through the Holy Spirit.
o v. 17, that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, being grounded in love
o v. 18, that they may comprehend with all the saints
o v. 19, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

As you can see, the context of Col. 2 is a warning against deception and a proclamation that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of deity. It is in Christ, in whom dwells deity, that we have protection from deception. He is our safety. In Eph. 3, the context is that the Gentiles are included in the saving plan of God, that Paul wishes that the Ephesians would be strengthened with power, that Christ would dwell in their hearts, and that they would be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Obviously, the contexts are different and because they are, the phrases must be interpreted in light of them. In Col. 2:9, Jesus is the guard against deception. In Eph. 3:19, being filled with the fullness of God is contextually speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (v. 16) and the indwelling of Christ (v. 17). It is in this context of indwelling that the statement is made about Christians being filled with the fullness of God. It is not saying that they are divine. Rather, it is saying that they are indwelt by God as is consistent with other scriptures.

John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him."

Rom. 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

Col. 2 is a different context and is dealing with a different issue than Eph 3. Though Col. 2:9 and Eph. 3:19 use similar phrases, they are not identical. Furthermore, Col. 2:9 contains the word "deity," "theotas," which only occurs in the entire Bible once, in reference to Jesus. In Col. 2:9 it states that in Jesus dwells the fullness of deity in bodily form. In Eph. 3:19 it says that Christians may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Likewise, the phrase "fullness of God" only occurs once in the entire Bible, right here in Eph. 3:19 and it is dealing with believers being indwelt by God through the Holy Spirit (v.16). So, Eph. 3:19 cannot be used to state that Col. 2:9 does not teach Jesus is God in flesh.
Furthermore, I cannot help but remember the words found in John 1:1 and verse 14 when thinking of Col. 2:9

* John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
* John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

A final note. In John 14:23 and Rom. 8:9, we see the indwelling of God as a Trinity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all said to dwell in the believer. This is the mystery and the wonder of God as a Trinity.
Col. 2:9 shows us that in Jesus dwells God, bodily. Eph. 3:19 shows us that Christians are indwelt by God through the Holy Spirit. They are different.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am"
(John 8:58).
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2131

The sacred secret of God is not about the identity of God, but who the seed is that would destroy the serpent in the first messianic prophesy. Gen 3:15

Jesus isn't God.

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time;

Very Happy

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Appearances of God

* Gen. 17:1, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless."
* Gen. 18:1, "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."
* Ex. 6:2-3, "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, ‘I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.'"
* Exodus 24:9-11, "Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank."
* Exodus 33:11, "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend..."
* Num. 12:6-8, "He [God] said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD..."
* Acts 7:2, "And he [Stephen] said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran...."

Can't see God:

* Exodus 33:20, "But He [God] said, ‘You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!'"
* John 1:18, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father; He has explained Him."
* 1 Tim. 6:16, "[God] who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see."
* John 6:46, "Not that any man has seen the Father except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father."
* John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
* Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'"
* Zech. 12:10, "And I [God] will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son..."

It is evident above that God was seen. But, considering the "Can't-see-God" verses, some would understandably argue that people have not seen God; otherwise, there would be a contradiction in the Bible. A possible explanation for this is that people were seeing visions, or dreams, or the Angel of the LORD (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21). But the problem is that the verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. They say that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Ex. 6:2-3).
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Ex. 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty, and at least Moses saw God, not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible--which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus; compare John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14 above.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father, and the apparent contradiction is easily resolved, especially when this is examined in the light of Jesus' words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.
This is an interesting study to present to Jehovah's Witnesses. Since they deny the Trinity, they have to do a lot of fancy talking to explain away the theophanies. I've never yet met a J.W. who could adequately explain these verses.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2131

Those "appearences" were angels representing God.

Acts 7:35 This Moses, whom they disowned, saying, ‘Who appointed you ruler and judge?’ this man God sent off as both ruler and deliverer by the hand of the angel that appeared to him in the thornbush.

The scriptures don't lie.

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time;
_________________
Agape,
TBax

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2131

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

Thanks RevJP

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

Cut-and-paste without citing your source much, RevJP? Why not at least plagiarize an article from a semi-respectable website?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

Pete · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:04 am Post subject:

TwoPutt · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:02 am Post subject:

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2131

TwoPutt,

Hi, Very Happy

The "we" is the group JP was slandering.

Very Happy

_________________
Agape,
TBax

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2131

JP,

Yes, certainly you are not malicious in your spreading FALSE rumors. Rolling Eyes

Your are right that that wasn't necessarily you, but Matt Slick who originally wrote the slander against us in a number of your cut and pastes in an effort to defame, but you circulate it. Just as guilty.

Now tell me what the board thinks about plagerism?
_________________
Agape,
TBax

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Tbax, you don't even know what slander is apparently. And what Matt Slick had written and I had posted is true. So if you have a problem with people hearing the truth, then that is your burden, and not an attempt by anyone to 'defame' anyone.

What you stated about me, and further about Matt Slick's writings were libelous.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi T----------

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time;

this statement could not have been made before Christ.

because----- the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lets say that I have been doing business with Bax Inc.
I don't know that this is a family operation I only know that I correspond with Mr.Bax.We talk over the phone,e-mail letters and so forth.One day Mr.Bax comes to town and I met him in person.I go to shake his hand and say "so you are Mr.Bax" and he replies " I am his son T".--All these calls and faxes have been to T who runs the company for his father.

Now have I realized that 1 the Mr Bax I never "knew" has a son or 2 the Mr. Bax (T) that I have been talking to has a father who is over him---I say 2 is the correct choice.

much love----------knuckle

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2131

JP,

Obviously the perception of slander is somewhat subjective.

Part of what you plagerized had Matt Slick calling JW's a "non-christian cult". That is a malicious, false, and defamatory report by Matt. Remember 2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report:, hence slander. His further writting indicate we have no clear responce, when we clearly do. His goal was to act as if we have no answer, as if that would stump us. Hence- False. You spreading these false ideas is also slander. Remember:5. to utter or circulate slander.

Thank you for providing the definition. That was helpful. Very Happy

Even though the perception of slander can be subjective the preception of plagerism is not subjective!!!

Now tell me what the board thinks about plagerism?
_________________
Agape,
TBax