water baptism

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: water baptism

Just thinking....again...

Jesus told Nicodemus, unless a man be born of water and spirit he won't enter the kingdom.

I was thinking born of water,
When a child is born into this life, at the time of birth, there is a breaking of water. And our spirits are born into this flesh body?
And all the part about being born again. Is it a rising from the dead into a new life, or a being born with a new spirit?

Now usually one doesn't break water without bringing forth a full pregnancy. How would or would this apply to being born again. Wouldn't that mean we would have to be ready, full term to be born. How does baptism fit into this? Because usually when we get baptised it's in the beginning of our walk not the end of it.
Or is it the end of our last life and being birthed into a new?

Is this referring to a future event, or does it happen at the time of baptism?
Is it a symbol or an actual event?

What are the birth pains, contractions, that bring forth the breaking of the water that brings forth new birth?
What would be the signs of these birth pains in a new convert?

sorry, lots of questions...

Peace
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Psalm109:31 · Goldfish Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 61

Isaiah 44:3
For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.

I think those are very good questions.

As for me I see the water as His word, and the Spirit is what He gives to us through His word, as Jesus says'

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

The pain is our old self and Jesus is the doctor who saves us from the pain.
_________________
May God bless you and keep you through Jesus Christ.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

golfjack · Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:46 am Post subject: reply

psalm 109:31, Very good post. Finally, someone agrees with me.

May God bless, golfjack

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Hi everyone, God bless,

delanoyz · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:50 am Post subject:

Hey, everybody please see my post on the topic that was started that says "Water Baptism is Essential for Salvation." When Jesus is talking to Nicodemus in John 3, He literally means water. Baptism is done with water and there are many examples in Acts that show how it was done. Look at the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8, for example. People get messed up when you start trying to interpret God's word to say something else to make it fit with your view on things. Water baptism is how the first church converted people and it didn't change until the Roman Catholic Church started "sprinkling" babies. Do some research and you will see that the necessity of being baptized in water for salvation is not a new concept at all. In fact, the idea of "praying Jesus into your heart" or "accepting the Lord" has only been around since the 1800's. Please stop reading into the scriptures and trying to change its meaning.

dispen4ever · Sea Monkey Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 13 Location: USA

I've read your posts, delanoyz, and those of holyghostpower, concerning baptism. They are all wet. Laughing

nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

just a note to remember, jesus himself was baptised with actual water & the actual spirit

dispen4ever · Sea Monkey Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 13 Location: USA

If one does not interpret scripture spiritually, one wanders in the desert of misinterpretation, of plucking passages out of their context.

The thing to remember is this: Did Jesus tell John to baptize Him to wash away his (Jesus') sins? Of course not! He was already without sin! Neither do you wash away your sins in a baptistry, a river, a lake, or swimming pool. Your status, your position, is just the opposite of that of Jesus at the Jordan River. He was sinless, yet he symbolically went through the purification rites that were familiar to who? To the Jews. The Jews were being commanded by John the Baptist to symbolically wash away their sins through baptism, a purification rite familiar throughout Judaism - something they could relate to, a symbolic gesture. Why? To publicly identify with the coming Messiah, that Holy One promised to Judaism, later made aware of among non-Jews through the Apostle Paul.

But Jesus changed that ritual:

John said, to paraphrase, I baptize you with water ..... one coming after me baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Do you see the context now? Jesus was born without sin, lived a sinless life, was baptized in the Jewish manner in water, and the Holy Spirit descended, to indicate God's pleasure with Him. You were born in sin, live a sin-filled life, received Christ as Savior while simultaneously receiving the Holy Spirit, and then, not for purification, but as an act of obedience, you were baptized in water. Why? To publicly identify with Christ. Jesus identified with a Jewish ritual; YOU, on the other hand, when you are baptized, are identifying with Christ! You are announcing that you have already received the Holy Spirit and you are committing your life to following Jesus.

He identified with your sin, you identify with his sinlessness. Since our sin-filled life is as filthy rags, Jesus imparts His righteousness to us when we receive the Holy Spirit. To say that receiving Jesus as Savior was not enough, that we still have to be dunked in water, is to rip salvation and water baptism out of its appropriate context. Rest assured that the gates to Heaven will not be slammed shut in your face if you do not go through the rite of water baptism. But do it when you have the opportunity, to identify yourself publicly as a follower of Christ. Then let your light shine amoung men! Smile

nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

SealedEternal · Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: water baptism

TheWord · Big Hamster Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 96

Circumcision and baptism are both outward forms of the same spiritual reality. The scriptural answer to this question will not please any person who has attached himself, his pride and his flesh to some divisive partisan doctrine of men. Very few first come to Christ as the thief already on the cross (Luke 23:40-43). But this scripture, too, was written for our admonition. For most of us, the law (with types, shadows, patterns) was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (Galatians 3:24).

While at this point in our relationship with Christ, we differ nothing from a servant, though [we] be lord of all (Galatians 4:1 and 1 Corinthians 3:21,22). Also while at this point, we are still in bondage under the elements of this world... (Galatians 4:3). Speaking of these very elements, Paul goes on to say you observe days, months, times and years. I am afraid of you lest I have bestowed labor upon you in vain (vs. 9-11).

Having said that, what is the apostle's attitude toward those who still feel that they personally must adhere to the scriptures which do clearly teach outward circumcision and baptism?

Don't Judge Your Brothers
Notice: Let no man judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME, but the body (which casts those shadows) is of Christ (Colossians 2:16-17).

So anyone who does happen to enjoy the "good things to come" (Hebrews 10:1), who realizes that true baptism is the baptism Christ was baptized with (Matthew 20:23), realizes he is "baptized into his (Christ's) death" (Romans 6:3), is up on the cross with Christ and doesn't need the outward sign of water baptism, but neither does he condemn those who still feel they need it.

Water baptism is the shadow of the Good thing to come spoken of in Hebrews 10:1. Ephesians 5:26-27 shows the "washing of water" that really is essential for salvation is "by the word," not physical water. Hebrews 9:21-23 - Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry [both types of the Christian]. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood: and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these (water baptism-the passover experience); but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these (the baptism of the Holy Spirit). This is what "sanctifies and cleanses." This agrees with our Lord's words of John 6:63 - It is the Spirit that gives life. The words that I speak unto you THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE. May the Lord give us eyes to see and ears to hear His truth.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:31 am Post subject:

hello, The Word...

Do you see any relation to Jesus coming to take away the sins of the world and the flood of Noah''s day?

The whole world was "baptised" then huh?

And when Noah came out of the ark...Behold..everything was made new.
Noah rode on the water..actually inbetween the firmaments. He and his family did not get "baptised" and through one of his kids evil entered into the world "again".

and again...and again...

Sodom...Lot escaped and his two daughters, but because of the daughters sin came into the world...again...and again...

There will always be a seed of adversity.

You know Satan tells lies as well as truths. And he told Jesus that God had given all these kingdoms into his hands...his/hers...
So there will always be one seated on his throne as well as God's.

Something about his son/her son..his seed/her seed...

Man is not complete without woman. and as long as they are seperate then there will always be two kingdoms.

reminds me of the story of how God found the child and it was still in it's blood. It hadn't been washed or salted. Yet God took him in and cleaned him up.
Who left the child abandoned?

The other thing about childbearing..in the law when a woman gave birth to a child she was considered unclean for a duration of time...

I agree that the "physical law" is a shadow or display of a "spiritual" truth.
And it was given so we could compare the physical works with the spiritual works...

but then spirit comes first and then physical..

God said..spirit...and it became..physical.

and physical has a duration of time but spiritual lives on eternal.

God did not leave us without witnesses, and water, fire, wind and earth are all witnesses to his works. His words become physical.

John's works showed us what God's word came to do...hmm..kind of like putting the cart before the horse..LOL..

depends on if your looking forwards or backwards..LOL
It's the crossroads.

do we go forwards or do we return??

repent!! turn around!!...or put your hand to the plough and go along...

Do we get in the ark to save ourselves from the flood to come? Or do we take our medicine like the thief on the croos was willing to take for his sins?

I am innocent until proven guilty....

If I submit to baptism then I am saying that I am guilty of sin.

oh Lordy..LOL..

you guys are awesome

God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

TheWord · Big Hamster Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 96

Mmm you are a pretty cool cat Lone. Very Happy

I do enjoy your posts.
We can see what Paul means when he says that the events recorded concerning the elect of God of the Old Testament times "are written for our admonition..." But we don't seem to think that the things written in the New Testament are for us. As a result, most of God's children will be in the same spiritual condition as the apostles of Christ when called upon the carry His cross...nowhere to be found. Someone will be tempted to say, "but that was before Pentecost. We now have God's Spirit in us. We preach the gospel, we heal the sick, we cast out demons." This way of thinking ["the day of Pentecost came 2,000 years ago. I've been baptized, so I've experienced Pentecost. I have God's Spirit."] is a false doctrine directly related to the same blindness afflicting many of the children of God in the apostles' day. They were preferring the pattern and the shadow to the body casting the shadow. (Colossians 2:17 - Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.) Notice Hebrews 10:1 - For the law having a shadow of good things to come and not the very image of the things... The apostle here is speaking of sacrifices. He is informing these Hebrews that sacrifices were shadows of the ultimate unblemished sacrifice. He goes on to say that the body casting the shadow is now here in the full light of day, so the shadows are gone, God "has no pleasure in them." (Hebrews 10:8 - Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;) They aren't "destroyed" (Matthew 5:17), but they are "fulfilled" in Christ. Likewise, it is the same with priests and the temple (Hebrews 8:4-5), and, yes, even sabbaths and holy days (Colossians 2:16, 17). God has no pleasure in shadows of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 10:1 and 7), shadowy priests, or the tabernacle (Hebrews 8:4,5).

Jesus Christ speaking of this and all scripture, has said the scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:35). So we have to be circumcised, right?! God will settle for nothing less; not one jot nor one tittle less. But, as Peter pointed out, neither our fathers nor we were able to bear ...this yoke (letter of the law).(Acts 15:10).

Here is the apostle Paul on the subject of outward signs of righeousness: ...shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills the law (the law of love or Spirit of the law - Romans 13:10) judge thee (you with the outward signs), who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Romans 2:27). Now, notice the next two verses (Romans 2:28-29 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.) Outward circumcision does not make one a Jew any more than outward baptism makes one a Christian.

Anyone who thinks that it does, has not considered the case of Simon Magus. Simon was baptized (Acts 8:13), yet Peter had this to say of him in verse 21 (Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God). And following in verses 22-23 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.) A man who had just been baptized was in the bond of iniquity, and had neither part nor lot in Christ. So what purpose did baptism serve?

Baptism is a type of the putting away of the filth of the flesh, a washing us clean of our sins. (1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:) Notice Peter says that it is not this sign of putting away the filth of the flesh that saves us, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by Christ's resurrection. What is his point?

Paul sheds some light on this in Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. In John 1:1, we are told that Christ is the word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Christ's blood is the 'water' that truly cleanses us. (Revelation 7:14 These are they which... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) This is the true washing of the water by the Word spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 5:26. If He is not in us, we are no better off than Simon the sorcerer was after his baptism. Philip had baptized him as a sign of his faith which Simon had professed, but the sign had not given him that which he did not possess. Only Christ can give us the faith to be truly baptized into His death, because even that faith is a gift from God. (Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.)

The plain teaching of scripture is ...the letter... dost trangress the law (Romans 2:27). God has "no pleasure" in outward "shadows," "types," or "patterns" (Hebrews 10:1 and 6). The law has not been "destroyed," but it has been fulfilled (Matthew 5:17) The question then is: is baptism of the old or new testament?

The apostles were baptized but NOT CONVERTED. (Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. This occurred the night He was taken - the Passover period.) This is the true meaning of the Passover experience. This shows us our need for Christ, but it does not perform a change in our lives. The real change occurs at Pentecost. The disciples were told to tarry in Jerusalem to receive God's spirit.

Until we come to see that Pentecost is not just a day, but a part of the Christian experience which follows "tarrying in Jerusalem" for our conversion, (after perhaps having already known Christ in the flesh; having been called by Him to preach, cleanse lepers, heal the sick, cast out demons and, yes, even raise the dead) we cannot truly know Christ in the spirit. All these things (preaching, healing, baptism, etc.,) are outward fleshly gifts of the Spirit, wonderful in their place and time, but not to be confused with, or even compared with, the "fruits of the Spirit" which are headed up in love. Though I speak with tongues... have the gift of prophecy... and all knowledge; and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains, and though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor... and... give my body to be burned, and have not charity (love), it profiteth me NOTHING. It appears that the New Testament (written for our admonition - 2 Corinthians 10:11) teaches us that most Christians are baptized with water long before they ever learn the meaning of a fiery (purifying) baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Do the experiences of the twelve apostles teach us anything concerning HOW WE FIRST SEE CHRIST? Do we not first know Christ only "after the flesh?" (2 Corinthians 5:16) ...though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet NOW HENCEFORTH know we Him no more. The apostles had been baptized and were baptizing others. They had been called and commissioned by Christ Himself to go preach... heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils... (Matthew 10:7 and 8), and as yet, their calling and gifts not withstanding, they were not even converted (Luke 22:32)!! Baptized, but NOT converted!

The holy days of the old testament are recognized by many to be an outline of God's plan for the believer. Notice what Paul says about the very first of God's annual holy days, the Passover, which was immediately followed by seven days of unleavened bread. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. The scripture enumerating the annual festivals is Leviticus 23, in which it is stated repeatedly it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations... (vs.14 et al) This scripture, as Paul says, is fulfilled in Christ. It is still a statute throughout our generations.

Israel was baptized, according to Paul, as they crossed the Red Sea. 1 Corinthians 10:2 - And were all baptized unto Moses... in the sea. This was immediately following their accepting the blood of the passover sacrifice, causing the death angel to 'pass over' them. This all equates to the experience in the new testament of Christ's apostles after His death and resurrection, but before the day of Pentecost. The disciples had been baptized, Christ had died and been resurrected, but they were not converted. (Luke 22:32) The baptism which truly saves us is something we must wait for, as the desciples waited fifty days for Pentecost. As Christ put it, 'if you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed.' (John 8:31) These are the same Christians, (those who believed in Christ), of whom Christ said six verses later you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you.

It is those who 'continue in my word', or as Christ told his disciples, 'tarry in Jerusalem', who become disciples 'indeed'. Those who regard outward signs ('Abraham is our father, water baptism, etc.) as a means of conversion, are not really converted at all.

Notice Christ's answer to those Jews who believed in Him. I know that ye are Abraham's seed (you have the outward sign of water baptism): but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. (John 8:38) But notice verse 39-40. After saying 'you are Abraham's seed', Christ says if you were Abraham's seed, you would do the works of Abraham, but now you seek to kill me; a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God. This did not Abraham. This could be paraphrased 'I know you have faith - you have been baptized, but faith without works is dead!' Simon the sorcerer was a Samaritan type of these Jews.

James 2:26 puts it this way - ...faith without works is dead! Paul says the same thing in Romans 2:5-6 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds (same word as works - ergon in the Greek).

SealedEternal · Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject:

rjustice7 · Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: Water baptism is a must...

The water spoken of in John 3:5 is definitely literal water as in baptism. The way we know this is because it is backed up in the scripture. When Jesus died for us, he died, was buried, and rose again. These are the 3 steps we must also take. We die through our repentance and changing of ways, we die out to our past sin by asking forgiveness and not looking back. Then we have water baptism. As Jesus was buried in the ground, so we are buried with Him in baptism. Then He rose again. Then we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost as a sign of the resurrection. Peter whom God gave the keys of the kingdom to, and who began the early church, preached baptism in His first message. Acts 2:38, “And Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” It says in this scripture that repentance and baptism are necessary for the remission of sins, and that we will receive the Holy Ghost. Baptism is definitely a necessity. It is found in Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16-17, Acts 10:46-38, Acts 19:4-5, Acts 22:16, and many, many, other scriptures.