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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: I think they found Elvis! |
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Ok...funny header, but not a funny topic...
6 Muslims (*3 illegally in the US) were arrested by the FBI for plotting to attack US military facilities... their names per the affidavit:
Mohamad Shnewer
Dritan "Tony" Duka*
Eljvir "Elvis" Duka* 
Shain Duka*
Serdar Tatar
Agron Abdullah
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/08/fortdix.plot/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Sudden Jihad Syndrome? maybe, but they've been "plotting" for over a year? Bravado? maybe, but they went so far as to do some training, attempt to purchase assault rifles, and do intel work on their targets...
good news? FBI got 2 dudes to infiltrate the organization (pro-US Albanians? working for money? either way, that's the silver lining)...
Full affidavit here
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
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What I can't figure out is that after we managed to get that thug Milosivich to quit ethnically cleansing these folks, after they illegally immigrated into his country to begin with, why in the world would they have a grievance against the US?
Oh... could it be... the Umma... nah... silly me. There is no distinction between borders and nationalities. This isn't a religious war... what am I thinking. They did this for the tolerant version of Allah and his prophet... the one that states there is no compulsion in religion... 
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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who has denied it is a religious war?...
of course it is....that seems to be the most popular kind... |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | What I can't figure out is that after we managed to get that thug Milosivich to quit ethnically cleansing these folks, after they illegally immigrated into his country to begin with, why in the world would they have a grievance against the US?
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agree and that's the disturbing part...these guys were clearly enjoying the benefits of life in America and yet....the Sept 11th 19 lived "high on the hog" and yet were still able to do what they did....
I think this particular group was the equivalent of "good ol' boys" with delusions of grandeur...but that doesn't make them any less dangerous...as dangerous as rednecks that kill a guy because he's gay or those nutjobs that dragged the black guy down the road with chains for "White pride"....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
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“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | What I can't figure out is that after we managed to get that thug Milosivich to quit ethnically cleansing these folks, after they illegally immigrated into his country to begin with, why in the world would they have a grievance against the US?
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agree and that's the disturbing part...these guys were clearly enjoying the benefits of life in America and yet....the Sept 11th 19 lived "high on the hog" and yet were still able to do what they did.... |
HERE is where these folks come from....
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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yep...but nobody wants to hear about that....
Moral relativism aside, we've moved to moral equivalancy...
Md Gov O'Malley yesterday at a speach being given by Shrillery:
"I remember after the attacks of September 11, as mayor of the city [Baltimore], I was very, very worried about al-Qaeda and still am. But I'm even more worried about the actions and inactions of the Bush administration." (Doug Donovan, "O'Malley Takes The Heat For Remarks About Bush," The Baltimore Sun, 7/1/04)
In peacetime, this stuff is laughable...but with the current virus of Bush Derangement Syndrome* running rampant in the public and the press , it's an egregiously self-centered and callous political move....
(*that's the irrational belief that Bush is both All-powerful and All-incompetent)
_________________
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“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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some other interesting tidbits...
2 of the Duka brothers came to the US as children... they've lived here 23 years...and yet, at least to some level, they identified with OBLs message and were actively (at least at some level) working to "answer the call"...
There have been some other Sudden Jihad Syndrome events, largely played down in the press....it's concerning....I believe this is known as "the tip of the iceberg"...now imagine if they were really serious...Britain faces this and has seen its ugliest side (7/7 bus bombing). France is facing this. Spain faced this and blinked...
In part, I think "organized" Islamists (al-Queda, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc) know better than to strike the US directly...if you wake up Americans and scare them, they crush you...much more effective to win the battle of a thousand paper cuts...just enough fear to encourage isolationist policies, just enough "hope of peaceful dialogue" to get us to ceed concessions for "peaceful relations", capitilize on American guilt and sensitivity over race relations to play that card (the Flying Imam situation), use our own courts and laws against us, use the naive (and maybe well-intentioned but deluded left wing) to further weaken "resolve"...
but Zawahiri is still making the call for armed resistance...and folks will start to answer...a movement (which is what this is rather than an organized campaign) has a way of "moving"...I hope we can contain it.
The elephant is tired, bored, and bleeding....and hyenas circle....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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One of the chief restraints to this fight (other than BDS as you implied) is our, and other western countries, absolute insistence to be politically correct. I believe you alluded to the moral equivalency doctrine that states, since these minority groups have been wronged in the past (pick a group... pick a perp... pick an instance of perceived injustice - all the while removing any context) and you can guilt a culture into submission to your cause. The mayor of London has done this, along with his accomplishes in that 'unbiased' news organization some here bow in adoration when citing... the BBC.
I for one refuse to play the PC game. I fear God. I believe all men are created in His image and deserve the dignity and respect that a creature created in that image demands. When men separate one from each other due to ethnicity, religion, culture, etc... all the while excoriating the other for not recognizing their shades of separation, I can only sit in amazement why people, who claim to exercise reason, are incapable of seeing this. Their myopic self centered - if it makes me feel better about myself it must be right (facts, history, logic be damned) philosophy has been shoveled down the west's throat for almost 50 years now... and it sits festering in our universities, public institutions, and even in our churches... weakening our ability to rationally defend ourselves from within and out.
I sincerely believe Europe will lose its historical culture within the next 20 years. As the older generation becomes infirmed, and the stark realization that there simply isn't enough young people around to care for them, as their own selfishness has essentially depopulated their culture out of existence - meaning they didn't have enough children, now they will need immigrants from all of the world to come care for them... and their socialist systems for welfare, it will come collapsing down on them when they cease to exist as a people.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm right with you...except for the Fear God part...God (if he exists) either doesn't care or condones what's happening....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | I'm right with you...except for the Fear God part...God (if he exists) either doesn't care or condones what's happening.... |
Really... how so? I believe that if He really didn't care (and that is affirming the fact that He does exist) He would have not created us with the ability to chose right from wrong... good from evil... what would have been the cruelest form of apathy would have been compulsion...
It seems to me you have gotten a hold of Dicky Dawkins malicious screed, 'The God Delusion,' and actually accept most of his out of place and context assertions… he is a piece of human debris as far as I’m concerned. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | | I'm right with you...except for the Fear God part...God (if he exists) either doesn't care or condones what's happening.... |
Really... how so? |
hmmm...I'll try to be concise. Under one premise, God loves us, gave us free will to exercise choice and an ultimate reward if we choose "Good" over "Evil".
That's not exactly Christian doctrine though...as I've stated before, according to the Gospels a man that lived a truly evil life that truly repents in his last days would be accepted into Heaven as readily as a man that lived a "righteous" and pious life all of his days. [promise of reward]. It's a dangerous game to play, because none of know "the number of our days", but it IS part of the "hope message"...[and an important part of the social conditioning role that religion plays in a civil society...]
Moreover, the Bible tells us that if a man: a) rejects God and b) lives an immoral life, he's punished for it...so there is tacit coercion to be "good" [avoidance of punishment]
So, at best, if you love God and live a good life OR eventually accept God's "governance", you go to heaven...a release from the problems of this world, but whether you live a "good" or "evil" life, the "human condition" exists for all (disease, loss, suffering, pain, illness) without regard to "belief"...
NONE of that addresses the "Problem of Evil" in our world. Nor does it explain why God does not intervene (in this life) on the behalf his believers or punish (in this life) those that counter his "word".
You're right, an omnipotent being could make us all compliant...He could literally be the ultimate dictator...we loose All Liberty in exchange for ensured Security.
So, under that premise (that God loves us enough to allow us to find our own way), no one should expect God to intervene, and yet folks pray for intervention all the time or point to Hurricanes as "Acts of God" to punish the unbelievers....However, the Bible recounts stories where God DID intervene on the behalf of particular people or peoples...which is evidence that he CAN. Moreover, if the Flood, Soddham and Gamora, and Jericho stories are true, he sometimes directly punishes the "evil-doers"...so....the story breaks down due to internal inconsistencies...
I guess it comes down to this: If God CAN do something (and as an omnipotent, He CAN do anything), and HAS done something in the past, but elects NOT to, then that is contrary and denies His omnibenevolence....in fact, at the end of the day, God rewards (with an eternal reward) those that believe in him (over all other things) more than those that live a "moral" life....and, instead of enforcing compulsion, he threatens with eternal suffering by coercion, which to me, isn't very omnibenevolent...it may be a form of "tough love", but it isn't "unconditional love", in fact, it's very "conditional"...
As for Richard Dawkins, I've seen his name mentioned here, but really have no idea who he is...I read widely and (try to) think broadly, so my opinions come from a diverse field...
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | hmmm...I'll try to be concise. Under one premise, God loves us, gave us free will to exercise choice and an ultimate reward if we choose "Good" over "Evil". |
Choosing 'good' over 'evil' is not the choice He proposed though. Choosing Him over rejecting Him is...
| Quote: | | Moreover, the Bible tells us that if a man: a) rejects God and b) lives an immoral life, he's punished for it...so there is tacit coercion to be "good" [avoidance of punishment] |
Again, I would disagree. The Bible teaches us that if we reject God and live what we consider a moral life we still are punished. The choice is ours... not Gods. This is what we could classify as the ideal example of love. Coerced love is not love... not ideally anyway.
| Quote: | | So, at best, if you love God and live a good life OR eventually accept God's "governance", you go to heaven...a release from the problems of this world, but whether you live a "good" or "evil" life, the "human condition" exists for all (disease, loss, suffering, pain, illness) without regard to "belief"... |
Do you beleive in the fall... literal fall of mankind... original sin?
| Quote: | | NONE of that addresses the "Problem of Evil" in our world. Nor does it explain why God does not intervene (in this life) on the behalf his believers or punish (in this life) those that counter his "word". |
Evil is what? People consistently point out that God must then be the author of evil... and I would disagree once we define what evil is...
| Quote: | | So, under that premise (that God loves us enough to allow us to find our own way), no one should expect God to intervene, |
I don't think that is Biblical. God helps us... I have seen it first hand. Others reject miracles... me... I don't. I have seen, in my church, a man with the same spinal cord injury as Christopher Reed get up and walk... walk to the front of the church and profess how God intervened in his healing. We can chose to believe it or not, but here you have a quantifiable miracle (Doctors words.. not mine) and people will still chose to reject it... for whatever reason they want... (BTW - he got creamed, while walking - by a car going 50MPH - he should have been dead in the first place)
| Quote: | | Moreover, if the Flood, Soddham and Gamora, and Jericho stories are true, he sometimes directly punishes the "evil-doers"...so....the story breaks down due to internal inconsistencies... |
In those cases the Bible states that ALL of the people were lost and evil... these were cases where men chose not to obey God...and actually flaunt and torment those who did, so God intervenes to preserve mankind or His purpose for man.
| Quote: | | I guess it comes down to this: If God CAN do something (and as an omnipotent, He CAN do anything), |
So, the ole cliché' of 'God can't make a rock He can't lift applies'? I don’t think so... this is a contradictory statement. Contradictory statements are false and therefore not applicable.
| Quote: | | in fact, at the end of the day, God rewards (with an eternal reward) those that believe in him (over all other things) more than those that live a "moral" life....and, instead of enforcing compulsion, he threatens with eternal suffering by coercion, which to me, isn't very omnibenevolent...it may be a form of "tough love", but it isn't "unconditional love", in fact, it's very "conditional"... |
Hmmm... again... what is a moral life? What is moral or not? God is also just... and not punishing those who have rejected Him to begin with, and have sinned against His purpose... would than not be the opposite of 'omni-benevolent'? What do we then say to those who were just and righteous in His eyes... sorry.... just kidding?
I think.. and this is just my humble partial opinion, you are picking and choosing...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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wooo...these get long...I'll try to cut where I can...
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Choosing 'good' over 'evil' is not the choice He proposed though. Choosing Him over rejecting Him is... |
fair enough...there are "stringers" attached to that bill though...if you choose God, you're also supposed to
live a particular lifestyle, follow certain codes, and refrain from other activities...
| Trinity1 wrote: |
The Bible teaches us that if we reject God and live what we consider a moral life we still are punished. The choice is ours... not Gods. |
No God chose the rules, conditions, and terms. We choose whether to accept them (recieve reward) or reject them (subject to punishment)...that's coercion.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Coerced love is not love... not ideally anyway. |
agree!  see comment above 
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Do you beleive in the fall... literal fall of mankind... original sin? |
No, I don't. At best it's allegory...at worst, it's a weak excuse...
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Evil is what? |
Do you really want examples?
| Trinity1 wrote: |
People consistently point out that God must then be the author of evil... and I would disagree once we define what evil is... |
If God is the creator of all things, then he also created evil...but I'd love to hear your definition of "what evil is...."
| Trinity1 wrote: |
God helps us... I have seen it first hand. Others reject miracles... me... I don't. |
In order to not overlengthen the post...I'll just say your example at best demonstrates the contrariness of God in "meddling in human affairs". He healed your friend? Great. He lots let of people (of belief and not-belief) suffer. That's arbitrary.
In specific reference to the "miracle"...I put this under "statistal probability"...in brief, I think everything can be defined along a Bell Curve...most things happen in the middle, but there are data points at the extreme limits....this is why some people never smoke and develop lung cancer at 25 and others smoke their whole lives and live to be 100. They're exceptions to the "rule"...not miracles.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | if the Flood, Soddham and Gamora, and Jericho stories are true, he sometimes directly punishes the "evil-doers"... |
In those cases the Bible states that ALL of the people were lost and evil... these were cases where men chose not to obey God...and actually flaunt and torment those who did, so God intervenes to preserve mankind or His purpose for man. |
So God lacks precision munitions? How about pick 1 city, and just have every pedaophile, arsonist, murderer, adulterer, and homosexual (since it's an abomination, right?) spontaneously and simultaneously combust? Your statement about "clean slate" may work for the Flood, but you're telling me there were only 2 cities on Earth at the time of S&G? And that even after the Flood, that entire population (save Noah) had ONCE AGAIN turned their face from God? again...as allegory it works...as history...not so much.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
So, the ole cliché' of 'God can't make a rock He can't lift applies'? I don’t think so... this is a contradictory statement. Contradictory statements are false and therefore not applicable. |
Why are they not applicable? I'm not even talking about the philosophical question of limits of power...even if God isn't omnipotent, he's supranaturally powerful...so, if he has superpower...and he is the source of morality...and he has intervened (for benefit/punishment) in the historical past...why do we not see it in modernity...For Pete's sake...the Holocaust! The Russian Purges! China's conversion to Communism! Cambodia! ISLAM! nope... zilch.... nada... nothing from the Big Guy in the Sky on ANY of those issues.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Hmmm... again... what is a moral life? What is moral or not? |
Succinctly...Treat others as you would like to be treated
| Trinity1 wrote: |
God is also just... and not punishing those who have rejected Him to begin with, and have sinned against His purpose... |
Not in this life...but a Biblical version of "What until your father gets home!" is looming is it not?
| Trinity1 wrote: |
What do we then say to those who were just and righteous in His eyes... sorry.... just kidding? |
I don't follow this line...could you clarify?
| Trinity1 wrote: |
I think..you are picking and choosing... |
First, it's my choice to make, right? But I'm not alone here...I'd say that Christians (or Muslims, or any other sect) also pick and choose...Certainly aspects of the Bible are stressed over others...some things are pounded on as "The Word of God" while others are not...
for example, do you support all the "adominations" outlined in Leviticus and Deuteronomy? Or do you accept only some?
How about the 10 Commandents? Still Law? or superceeded by the Gospels and Paul's testimony?
Finally, I post these not to attack anyone's faith. Believe it or not, I have great respect for the cultural foundations that the Judeo-Christian gives us...I don't intend to "evangelize" my views...merely share them with others that may also come here...Pondering
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Just a couple of comments here and I'll be done...
| Pondering wrote: | fair enough...there are "stringers" attached to that bill though...if you choose God, you're also supposed to
live a particular lifestyle, follow certain codes, and refrain from other activities... |
Actually... if you chose God you will feel compelled to follow those codes and activities...
| Quote: | | No God chose the rules, conditions, and terms. We choose whether to accept them (recieve reward) or reject them (subject to punishment)...that's coercion. |
Whoah? Huh? We are allowed to accept God... or not... which is the equivalent to accepting eternity with Him... or without Him... and that is coercion? It is our choice... not His. That is love. Do/did you love your parents because you had too? Would you want your children love you because they had too? That is not love. Call it coercion or not... it is love none-the-less.
| Quote: | | If God is the creator of all things, then he also created evil...but I'd love to hear your definition of "what evil is...." |
I believe it is the absence of good. If it is the absence of good, it is therefore the absence of God... as God is good and created the earth 'good'. Evil would therefore be man's rejection, or willful disobedience to the creation God created.
| Quote: | | In order to not overlengthen the post...I'll just say your example at best demonstrates the contrariness of God in "meddling in human affairs". He healed your friend? Great. He lots let of people (of belief and not-belief) suffer. That's arbitrary. |
Really? And if Christopher Reed would have gotten up out of his wheelchair and walked... would that also be arbitrary? No... it is not physically possible... it has nothing to do with statistics... a Bell Curve... Standard Deviations... or anything close. It has everything to do with what I chose to perceive as divine intervention.
| Quote: | | In specific reference to the "miracle"...I put this under "statistal probability"...in brief, I think everything can be defined along a Bell Curve...most things happen in the middle, but there are data points at the extreme limits....this is why some people never smoke and develop lung cancer at 25 and others smoke their whole lives and live to be 100. They're exceptions to the "rule"...not miracles. |
I disagree. A miracle is a supernatural event. an event that cannot be explained by natural processes. Christopher Reed getting out of his wheelchair and walking would have been a miracle... not a statistically anomaly. There is no way this fella should have gotten up and walked… there is no physical or natural explanation. But he did… and he chooses to give credit to the one who can heal the cripple… and so do I.
Anyway… these are just some quick answers to these vexing questions. Perhaps you have, or have not heard them before… I think I can say that I honestly and sincerely understand some of your dilemmas. I don’t think the Bible was written to answer every single question that we could ever conceive, or answer each one with 100% satisfaction. It does, however, provide better explanations than pure chance and time (which is consensus science).
Now… what was the topic of this thread again?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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 true that we've taken a turn..
and I appreciate both you (RevJP) and Trinity's responses...we probably line up in our "belief" systems pretty well...except for this one...
I particularly like your definition of evil...it doesn't answer the question of why God allows it, but it makes "sense"
The difference between whether I choose God is not analogous to a human relationship...I would like my children to love me as I love them...but I cannot *Holy Censor, Batman* them to eternal punishment if they don't
I suppose this calls for a definition of "Hell"....do you see it as:
a) a place of eternal suffering...a pit of fire and all that?
or
b) exclusion from God's glory?
as for Christopher Reed...had he walked out of that chair, I would have thought "Good for him" but wouldn't have thought it a miracle...even if I saw a big finger come out of the sky and touch him on his forehead Why? Because it would still be an "outlier" on my Bell Curve...it's arbitrary...Why the guy in Trin's church or Christopher Reed....Now, if EVERY para- or quadraplegic got up and walked out of their chair..with no other medical treatment...well,that would make me rethink my drink
Or simply regenerate 1...just 1...amputee.
You see divine intervention...I see the "miracle" of the human machine's ability to heal
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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