144,000

MoJo · Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: 144,000

Your going to have to back that up Tss. #evil

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Cr 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know **the house ** of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Are you saying that when the bible says men, it literally means men and not mankind in general??? And are you also saying that when Paul and James said firstfruits that there were no women included in this.???

You are saying the 144,000 are men in the flesh ???? Then what happens to them??

Please speak slowly so I can understand exactly what you're maintaining.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

MoJo · Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject:

Just thought of something else, as well. You said;

Yehushuan · Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject:

Mojo, sorry if my cutting in like this bothers you, but you have touched upon issues of translation; (and translation just excites me).

Traditional interpretation of this passage in Rev. 14 would indeed claim that the 144,000 were all male who had never participated in any sexual congress. The specific phrase “they which were not defiled with women” is pointed to as further proof these were male, for there would have been no need to mention this about females; or if the group was mixed, different language would be used to specify these people were chaste (or at least so goes the traditional argument).

However.

The text does not say they are virgins (nor does it say they are male) as “virgin” is an English word. The actual Greek text says they are “parthenoi”, plural of parthenos or maiden. Plain and simple, these are women – all of ‘em – all 144,000 female “virgins”. The word in the Greek text is Strong’s number G3933: parthenos - par-then'-os: Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.

Thayer’s dictionary adds the “male-virgin” definition precisely because of this verse and its traditional interpretation, which is a perfect example of theology leading the translator!! But you will not find this definition ever used by any Greek manuscript of the period. Parthenos means female, and is the root of the word Parthenon, or the temple of vestal virgins.

By now I’m sure you will have heard the saying that the Bible should interpret itself, no? Well then, we can use e-sword to search all the occurrences of 3933, and we find the word parthenos used in 13 verses:

(Matthew 1:23) Behold, a virgin 3933 shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (Female context.)

(Matthew 25:1,7,11) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins 3933, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom… (used two more times – all with female implications within the parable).

(Luke 1:27) To a virgin 3933 espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. (Female context.)

(Acts 21:9) And the same man had four daughters, virgins 3933, which did prophesy. (Female context.)

(1 Corinthians 7:25) Now concerning virgins 3933 I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. (Unspecified context. Female by word gender.)

(1 Corinthians 7:28) But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin 3933 marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. (Female context.)

(1 Corinthians 7:34) There is difference also between a wife and a virgin 3933. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. (Female context.)

(1 Corinthians 7:36) But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin 3933, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. (Female context.)

(1 Corinthians 7:37) Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin 3933, doeth well. (Female context.)

(2 Corinthians 11:2) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin 3933 to Christ. (Female context.)

(Revelation 14:4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins 3933. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Unspecified context. Female by word gender.)

And that’s it - all other Biblical references in the NT for G3933 are female (one unspecified in context) as is the gender of the word in Greek. It would take an extraordinary usage to have a word of female gender in Greek apply to a male. It isn’t commonly done, and to be honest I don’t know of one instance where a female word is ever applied to a male (except as an insult like “sissy”).

Yehu

For further fun see: Greek use of parthenos and The Parthenon replica in TN

PS: Just think that poor suicide Muslim only gets 72 virgins, when Jesus gets 144,000. And before anyone goes apecrap all over me, the language is similar to other Greek texts describing vestal virgins dedicated to a god. *I* didn’t structure the language to read that way, and no one back then would think smutty thoughts, especially when these virgins didn’t cavort amongst themselves (“defiled with women”) as was rumored among the Greek temple virgins to their shame and unholiness. This was meant to show how better the Lamb of God was than other Greek gods.
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.

Yehushuan · Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject:

Sorry, I guess I should have mentioned the 144,000 in Rev. 7 is a different group than the 144,000 in chapter 14. The group in chapter 7 are Jews upon the earth sealed in order to prevent the effects of the angel given to hurt the earth and the sea. Those in chapter 14 are Christian women (parthenoi redeemed as firstfruits from among mankind) who only sing and follow the Lamb around - first seen on mount Sion.

But I’m certain someone else has a different interpretation.

Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.

MoJo · Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 6:09 am Post subject:

Hello Yehu. Couple of things; first, you should not enter in conversation with someone automatically thinking that they will **apecrap** all over you. If this is your experience, then perhaps you ought to contemplate why fellow brothers and sisters cannot discuss God's word peaceably. Don't forget to have a good look at the beam in your own eye first.

Secondly, you will be surprised to know that I agree with you. WOW!

Thirdly, I don't need to study the Greek or Hebrew to know this. The bible interprets itself. It only makes sense from many other scriptures that the female gender is used. However, this is not a statement on the actual natural gender of a person.

As is shown from the beginning, Adam = Christ and Eve = his temple and body and helpmeet. The Lord likened Israel to his wife.

Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Now obviously, at least to me it's obvious, that the female connotation includes both men and women; just as it does regarding Babylon the Great.

Yehushuan · Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 11:15 am Post subject:

Mojo,

Please accept my apologies. The “apecrap” was not meant to be specifically directed at you, and I hadn’t made that clear (I was in fact thinking of someone else). I have edited my post to better express my sentiments. And yes, my experience (even here) is that my views are so radical as to nearly instantaneously cause an emotional reaction akin to voluntary enlistment in the inquisition. And I really have no idea why fellow brothers and sisters cannot discuss God’s word peaceably. Heaven knows I try.

MoJo · Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject:

Yehu, my own personal beliefs regarding the twelve tribes is that all of the Lord's house is designated to a tribe unbeknownst to us. You will notice it is glaring by it's absence that we have very little information concerning what tribes the apostles belonged to. However I believe they are assigned to Judah.

Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah.

Notice there seems to be a distinction made between Judah and the house of David even though David was of the tribe of Judah. Who could magnify themselves against Judah, but the converted Gentiles.

In a study I did, it became obvious to me that Benjamin was representative of the Gentiles, being the youngest and in similitude not present when Joseph was sold into Egypt. Also Paul was a Benjamite. Understanding the prophecies relies heavily on understanding the way God changes names.

Ezekial speaks of three sisters who will fall under the new covenant; Samaria, Jerusalem (judah) and Sodom. The Lord's people are split into three other names; Assyria, Egypt and Israel.

Eze 16:46 And thine elder sister [is] Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, [is] Sodom and her daughters.

Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, [even] a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed [be] Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

All of this is just to show that Rev 7 cannot be taken at it's face value regarding these being literal jews just because they are named under he twelve tribes of Israel.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

...that is the most far out thing i have heard in a while....the reason you think the 144000 in the two chapters are different is because you are mixed up...

there is nothing to suggest such in the bible....nothing at all....the virgin thing is no different than the church being a bride and virgin...like the ten virgins...or the HOLY SPIRIT in the female...both groups sealed...

of course the are the jewish tribes...it is right there in chapter seven...

sealed in the forehead...the name of GOD written in their forehead....your arguement is silly....there is nothing to say otherwise...and they are men...all 144000...they are the remnant...more later...

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

on second thought...nevermind...since yeho wants to sling his insults and act like a victim at the same time...you two can have this conversation...

as far as the ape crap thing...what else would an ape do to a baboon...
besides crap on him...after all...his false doctrine is nothing more than dung anyway...so atleast that way it is all in a pile...

it is just too bad folks can't have a bible based discussion without the nonsense like yeho has posted here...the book of james was written to the twelve tribes...but since james is not scripture...why talk about it...

if any wish to discuss it further...i will in a pm...but i am out of here... gilligan's island is coming on and it holds more truth than yeho's words...

Yehushuan · Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject:

(I am underwhelmed at the erudition. ;^)
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago.

got_truth? · Ferret Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 107

The bride of Christ is composed of 144,000 spirit-anointed persons who individually maintain their ‘virginity’ by remaining separate from the world and by keeping themselves morally and doctrinally pure.—Re 14:1, 4; compare 1Co 5:9-13; 6:15-20; Jas 4:4; 2Jo 8-11.

Zathrus · Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:44 am Post subject:

Yehu (if you still stop by and read),
I think what you've pointed out here regarding the allusion in Rev 14 to vestal parthenoi is fascinating. It certainly bears further thought.

I tend to agree with MoJo on the 144,000 spoken of in Rev 7. While specific tribes are named, I think the intent is to show that redeemed Jew and Gentile believers are God's Israel. In Rev 21, specific precious stones are listed as composing the foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem. Yet the intent seems to be to show that the church, the Bride of Christ (which is specifically identified as being the New Jerusalem in verses 9 and 10) is God's true priesthood.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451

Silver Surfer · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:09 am Post subject:

The 144,000 are Christians described in Revelation 14.

They will be proclaiming God's Last warning message to the world ...just before Jesus Christ comes again.

They will be warning people about the Mark of the Beast.

They will be telling people that God's Judgment Day will soon close.

They will be telling people to come out of the false religions of the world.

They will be telling people HOW to prepare for Jesus Christ soon return to this earth, for His church.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.