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theseldomscene
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Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: what must be done?... |
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there has been a lot of talk about the u.s. getting out of iraq.....
what has to be done to enable us to leave?...i mean, what do we have to do to make the country stable so we can leave?...and how do we do it?... |
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P1234567890
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Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: what must be done?... |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | there has been a lot of talk about the u.s. getting out of iraq.....
what has to be done to enable us to leave?...i mean, what do we have to do to make the country stable so we can leave?...and how do we do it?... |
You have to make sure that the Islamists can't claim a P.R. victory. They can't be able to say something like, "We won! We kicked the infidel Americans out of Iraq!"
A pragmatic solution might be to put Saddam back into power...
That's just a little joke.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
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"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Myyth
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Isnt there some famous quote from the Vietnam war ? Didnt a president ask a general how to get out of the war .. and the response was
"Easy ... Claim victory and leave". |
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P1234567890
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Myyth wrote: | Isnt there some famous quote from the Vietnam war ? Didnt a president ask a general how to get out of the war .. and the response was
"Easy ... Claim victory and leave". |
Yeah, it isn't so easy. Even if America 'wins' in Iraq, the Islamists will still claim victory.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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"Yeah, it isn't so easy. Even if America 'wins' in Vietnam, the Vietnamese will still claim victory."
If we did it, in 40 years Iraq will be dismissed as a "police action" just like Vietnam is now.
The only problem is things didn't exactly go well the last time we did this and there is absolutely no reason to think that things would this time.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | "Yeah, it isn't so easy. Even if America 'wins' in Vietnam, the Vietnamese will still claim victory."
If we did it, in 40 years Iraq will be dismissed as a "police action" just like Vietnam is now.
The only problem is things didn't exactly go well the last time we did this and there is absolutely no reason to think that things would this time. |
In war, when exactly do things go 'well'? Who gets to quantify 'well' in the first place?
The purpose of invading Iraq was to remove Saddam from power. We did. I suppose that didn't go to ‘well’ as it took us two weeks instead of just one... 
Perhaps establishing our authority didn't go 'well' either. I mean, we were only running everything from boarder security, to ensuring the spring wheat harvest got in on time. Maybe we should have been involved in increasing the annual rainfall or something too?
I suspect that it really doesn't matter what happens over there as not every one will ever be satisfied... no matter how successful we are… as ‘well’ is a standard only met by utopian types in their world… wherever that may be.
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ok tri...we did all that beautifully...now...what must be done to be able to leave?...in your opinion... |
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Trinity1
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | ok tri...we did all that beautifully...now...what must be done to be able to leave?...in your opinion... |
TSS... for once in my life... I don't have an answer... I don't know.
I thought I knew. I thought, once we freed those folks from the clutches of that bozzo... that would be it. Turned out I was wrong.
I thought after a few elections, the establishment of a constitution, the establishment of a democracy... boom.... they would be ready to step out on their own. Turned out I was wrong.
I thought that after thousands of innocent people were killed in their streets by their own people... and foreign fighters... the people would turn their anger at these folks and rule themselves righteously. Turned out I was wrong.
TSS, it is Saturday night, and I am watching a guy called 'Mancow' interview a guy called 'lazydork' on Fox TV.  I thought Fox had high standards for journalism... it turns out I was wrong.  and you want my opinion?
Perhaps we ought to just follow what FFT says others have done in the past... declare victory and leave. 
That, however, does not solve the problem. The problem is, if we stay, we get this 'panty wearing' whining from our left screaming that we are evil... soldiers are dieing... people are dieing... because we are there... never because there Syrians and Iranians are sending fighters into the country to kill Iraqi's... no... it is because we are there. So, if we stay... we can listen to these libs whine... and try to give this fledgling democracy some hope... predicated on trusting us to support them as they try desperately to get these thugs out of their country.
Or... we could follow McCain's advice and send in more troops, kill as many terrorists as we can... and perhaps risk killing those who are not terrorists... and then proceed to try to restablish law and order. Albeit... this prolly has the least likelihood of success.
This may surprise you... but I think Joe Bidden has a pretty good idea about dividing the country up into three different autonomous states, that share the oil revenues of the southern controlled Shia. Give the Shia the South, the Sunni control of Baghdad, and leave the Kurds alone in the north. That just might be the only answer. That however, would require another vote... another constitution, another government.
My answer is to give them what they want. Let the police fight it out among each other for control of the regions. Let the elected officials make the call who stays and who goes. And all we have to do is stay put on our compounds and interfere when things get really bad. All the while send one or two cruise missiles into Iran and Syria for every truck full of fighters and ordnance is caught coming across the boarder. That might at least discourage them once they have to sweep up the same messes in Damascus and Tehran.
The problem is if we leave the country to the terrorists, regardless of who we say won or wins, the whole region falls. The price of gas goes up to over $5 a gallon. Our economy spins into recession and hyper inflation. The world economy follows suit... if not leads us first. A breeding ground is now firmly ensconced in the middle of Muslim fanatic alley. All the while the Iranians (who oh by the way are busy brewing up their own nuclear bomb) have the means of striking out at Israel and Europe. The Syrians are left unfettered to play Hezzbollah like a violin against Israel.
In other words... it all goes wrong if we don't win. Regardless if we want to admit it or not... we can not leave the country to itself. Maintaining a presence, whether it is active or passive... has to be maintained until the government can operate on its own.
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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thanks tri...let me ask...
what if you were told that it will never happen?...iraq will be scorched and its people shattered....would you say stay and try...or leave?...
also, mcain's idea...not saying i agree with it at this time, but, what about it?...wouldn't help to dump about 200% more personal into iraq...designating 25% of them from trainning an iraqi army...that way we could train them faster than the insurgency is killing them...and at the same time have the man power to really crack down on the borders and streets...allowing the army to produce about 5000 trainned personel a month after the first two month's...trainned to train....for one year, then call out all ground troops, sending them home....support the iraqi army with air power for two more from navy carriers and battle groups...go home
60,000(or whatever) uniformily trainned men...no matter how many we must put their...
arm them with the latest sluggin' it out weapons...go home....leaving them the trainning base with quilified instructors who are iraqi...as i said, i don't necessarily agree with something ike this...just for discussion...so if the numbers don't pan out..then whatever it would take to make them do so....
but...make no mistake...whether we are there or not...babylon will burn....not even its babies will be pitied... |
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RevJP
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | what has to be done to enable us to leave?...i mean, what do we have to do to make the country stable so we can leave?...and how do we do it?.. |
2 or 3 ICBM's should take care of the problem...
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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IronSharpensIron
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Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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2-3 ICBM's-why? because we have lost-I think not REVJP.
We were all fooled just like Trinity has finally acknowledged...fooled through the use of fox news and lying pocket lining politicians...
The answer-get out of Iraq ASAP...develop alternative fuels and get off the oil addiction....
Shinseki was correct-Rumsfeld was wrong..the new draft idea will enrage our citizens even more so....
Why is it so hard for America-supposedly a 'christian' nation to admit...We Lost....why is victory so important when we have miserably lost...Stay and do what-spend 8 billion dollars a month on freeman demockercy?
I was fooled at first too-Never again, never again, never again....
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17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. |
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Trinity1
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| IronSharpensIron wrote: | | We were all fooled just like Trinity has finally acknowledged...fooled through the use of fox news and lying pocket lining politicians... |
I suppose asking you to point out where I stated this is pointless... as I know I never even implied this.
So... the bottom line here is... you either cite.. or retract. Your choice. If not... your are lying about what I posted.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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TSS... the simple answer to your question about McCain is that we simply don't have that many soldiers to sustain that tempo for any amount of time.
The reason Rummmy went on the cheap with the number of soldiers is that we only have 10 Divisions. After the draw down during the 90s... we ran out of troops.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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IronSharpensIron
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Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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There ya go Trinity- | Quote: | I thought I knew. I thought, once we freed those folks from the clutches of that bozzo... that would be it. Turned out I was wrong.
I thought after a few elections, the establishment of a constitution, the establishment of a democracy... boom.... they would be ready to step out on their own. Turned out I was wrong.
I thought that after thousands of innocent people were killed in their streets by their own people... and foreign fighters... the people would turn their anger at these folks and rule themselves righteously. Turned out I was wrong.
TSS, it is Saturday night, and I am watching a guy called 'Mancow' interview a guy called 'lazydork' on Fox TV. I thought Fox had high standards for journalism... it turns out I was wrong. and you want my opinion?
Perhaps we ought to just follow what FFT says others have done in the past... declare victory and leave.
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Now it may be your words are misinterpreted, or it may be your pride...or it may be when people type stuff you cant tell what they mean...but by your own words-you were wrong...no need to get upset there...just a discussion...my apologies if those assumptions are hurtful to you.
And now Fox is putting out that OJ Simpson garbage-itll be interesting to see if they ever get right...
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Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. |
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IronSharpensIron
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Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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From Trinity: | Quote: | TSS... the simple answer to your question about McCain is that we simply don't have that many soldiers to sustain that tempo for any amount of time.
The reason Rummmy went on the cheap with the number of soldiers is that we only have 10 Divisions. After the draw down during the 90s... we ran out of troops |
Nothing new there-and it was stated by shinseki b4 hand...thats why now the draft is being suggested...we dont have the troops to do the job, and the ones we do have are tired, wore out and need refreshment, all said by people that were brushed off and counted kooky before...now we see...they were right...
_________________
Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. |
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