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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: Ronald Reagan was an evil man... |
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Do you guys know about "Bloody Thursday" in People's Park, in Berekely, California?
A bunch of students and hippies that took a crappy, muddy eye-sore of a lot and through volunteer communal effort turned it into a beautiful park. They planted grass, flowers, trees, etc, and helped feed the homeless and do all sorts of other good things. More than anything else, it was a place for free assembly where free speech could be practiced...
Anyways, then governor of California Ronald Reagan ordered the park closed, and when people protested, he ordered a major violent crackdown on them. Police officers shot at the students with shotguns, and killed a bunch of them. The officers even continued to shoot the students in the back as they were running away, causing many permanent injuries.
Instead of using birdshot, which was commonly used at the time for crowd control, they loaded their shotguns with 00 shot, which is much more lethal.
So much for free speech!
You can read about it all here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Park_%28Berkeley%29
I can't believe that you guys elected this monster as your president twice! And I can't believe that he's remembered as a great president rather than the monster that he was.
Shooting unarmed, peaceful protesters with shotguns is something you expect leaders like Hitler and Stalin to do; it's not something you expect an American leader to do...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7002
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: |
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As is becoming your norm P123.... Your rant is long on judgment and condemnation and woefully ignorant of the facts.
He ordered a closing of the park. The people rioted and attacked the police who were upholding the law. A sheriff ordered the use of a particular gunshot. How does this equate to Reagan | Quote: | | Shooting unarmed, peaceful protesters with shotguns |
Interesting though that the article your provided a link to doesn't seem to include some of the facts that eyewitnesses had provided. It happens that my oldest brother and my cousin were both at that park during the riot, thier story includes a bit more violence on the part of those "peaceful protesters ".
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1504
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/parks/parkspages/PeoplesPark.html
Eventually, the university decided to take their private property back. They bulldozed the garden, the pathways, and even the sandbox and put a fence around the lot, enraging community members who had put so much hard work into creating something positive. Thousands of protesters gathered to express their dismay. The protests got out of hand and turned into riots when some people used the chaos as an excuse to be destructive. Rocks and metal rods[b] were thrown at the police. Eventually, the National Guard, in full battle gear, was ordered in by Governor Ronald Reagan to put down the protests. Many people were injured, [b]one was blinded, and another was shot and killed. The streets of Berkeley were shrouded by a blanket of tear gas for days during the demonstrations. The National Guard occupied the City for weeks.
SO...P...You think it's ok for folks to seize private lands, then riot when the government (who are charged with protecting private property) reclaims it on behalf of the owner...oh, and as a result of quelling a riot, 1 dude dies and now Reagan (you know, the guy that defeated the Soviet Union? Shut down Libya? Got our hostages out of Iran? Re-established America to a position of strength?...now Reagan is a "monster"? give me a break 
P, I know you're still studying, and this is not meant as a slam, but how much time have spent outside of a university setting?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
Interesting though that the article your provided a link to doesn't seem to include some of the facts that eyewitnesses had provided. It happens that my oldest brother and my cousin were both at that park during the riot, thier story includes a bit more violence on the part of those "peaceful protesters ". |
Regardless of whether or not it was a 'riot', you DON'T use deadly force! And you especially don't shoot people in the back as they are running away!
As for blaming Reagan, he was the one who gave the orders to do whatever it takes.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
SO...P...You think it's ok for folks to seize private lands, then riot when the government (who are charged with protecting private property) reclaims it on behalf of the owner...oh, and as a result of quelling a riot, 1 dude dies
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The university ran out of money and the park was a muddy mess. It wasn't being used, so the community decided to do something nice with it. That sounds reasonable to me. Being a public university, I would argue that they are at least partially beholden to the taxpayers and the community where they are located.
And let's not kid ourselves, the violent crackdown had NOTHING to do with private property rights, and everything to do with silencing anti-Vietnam protests.
| Pondering wrote: |
and now Reagan (you know, the guy that defeated the Soviet Union?
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Come on; the Soviet economy was in clear trouble as far back as the 60s. By the 70s, its collapse was imminent. Reagan may have been riding the horse when it finally died, but let's not give him too much credit...
| Pondering wrote: |
Got our hostages out of Iran?
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You are misinformed. Carter got the American hostages out of Iran. Reagan had exactly nothing to do with it. Check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis
| Pondering wrote: |
...now Reagan is a "monster"? give me a break
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Yes, I would argue that spilling American blood on American soil in order to suppress free speech makes him a monster. Here's a quote from him:
| Quote: | | If there has to be a bloodbath, then let's get it over with. -San Francisco Chronicle, early morning edition, May 15, 1969 |
| Pondering wrote: |
P, I know you're still studying, and this is not meant as a slam, but how much time have spent outside of a university setting? |
I've been in school continuously since grade 1. I've had jobs outside of university, and I've played a lot of sports, but I am essentially an academic.
Here's another relevant quote from the Wikipedia article:
| Quote: | | As the protestors retreated, the Alameda County Sheriff's deputies chased them several blocks down Telegraph Ave. as far as Willard Junior High School at Derby Street, firing "00" buckshot into their backs as they fled. Many people, including innnocent bystanders, suffered permanent injuries, some with as many as a hundred lead pellet wounds in their scalps, necks, backs, buttocks and thighs. One man, John Willard, lived for years in intractable pain with lead pellets lodged near his spine. |
I can't believe that you guys are defending the crackdown!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| my computer is working slow so i can't read the links tonight...but someone was shot in the head...with 00 shot...numerous pellet wounds?...man..that would take some explaination that has not came up here yet... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | my computer is working slow so i can't read the links tonight...but someone was shot in the head...with 00 shot...numerous pellet wounds?...man..that would take some explaination that has not came up here yet... |
Here are some key facts from the Wikipedia article:
| Quote: |
Chancellor Heyns promised everyone that nothing would be done without warning and that he was committed to arriving at an amicable compromise.
...
During its first three weeks, People's Park came to be enjoyed and appreciated by University students and local residents alike. Telegraph Ave. merchants were particularly appreciative of the community's efforts to improve the neighborhood. Objections to the expropriation of University property tended to be mild, even among school administrators.
Governor Ronald Reagan had been publicly critical of University administrators for tolerating student demonstrations at the Berkeley campus, which he called "a safe haven for commie sympathizers." Many people were offended by what they regarded as the unpatriotic nature of such demonstrations, especially those against the war in Vietnam, and Reagan had received enormous popular support for his 1966 gubernatorial campaign promise to crack down on the lax attitude at California's public universities.
Reagan saw the creation of People's Park in ideological terms. He considered the creation of the park a direct leftist challenge to the property rights of the University, and this was an opportunity to make good on his campaign promise. Reagan decided to put an end to People's Park, and he proclaimed "If there has to be a bloodbath, then let's get it over with" (San Francisco Chronicle, early morning edition, May 15, 1969).
Governor Reagan overrode Chancellor Heyns' promise that nothing would be done without warning, and he sent 250 Highway Patrol and Berkeley police officers into People's Park at 4:45 a.m on Thursday, May 15, 1969. The officers cleared an 8-block area around the park while a major portion of what had been planted was destroyed and an 8' tall perimeter chain-link wire fence was installed to keep people out and prevent the planting of more trees, grass, flowers and shrubs. |
...which makes sense because flowers and grass are evil, at least in Reagan's world.
So here's a summary of the situation: people take a crappy eye-sore mud-hole and through a concerted act of community spirit that would make Jesus Himself proud turn the park into something beautiful. The university who owns the park doesn't really care that much, but Reagan who can't stand the idea of 'commie sympathizers' having the right to free speech decides to use DEADLY FORCE to crush the entire thing, and in the process kills, injures, and maims dozens of AMERICAN CITIZENS with shotguns loaded with 00 shot...
Are you guys seriously going to defend Reagan here?!?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | my computer is working slow so i can't read the links tonight...but someone was shot in the head...with 00 shot...numerous pellet wounds?...man..that would take some explaination that has not came up here yet... |
And that poor guy wasn't even a protester! And the guy they blinded wasn't a protester either; he was just a carpenter doing some work on a roof!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | And that poor guy wasn't even a protester! And the guy they blinded wasn't a protester either; he was just a carpenter doing some work on a roof! |
| Quote: | | Governor Reagan overrode Chancellor Heyns' promise that nothing would be done without warning, and he sent 250 Highway Patrol and Berkeley police officers into People's Park at 4:45 a.m on Thursday, May 15, 1969. |
why was the guy doing carpentry on a roof at 4:45a.m.?...(it's a wonder one of the neighbor's didn't shoot him)...
ps. i am not defending reagan...just don't understand the shooting thing is all...i am stupid...know this...and i am not arguing against the facts...but i can't see how a person could be close enough to 00 shot and having numerous pellet injuries to the head without it being blown off...and if one was far enough away for the gun so that the pellet of 00 shot would only damage the head, then the odds of having numerous shot injuries would be hard to conceive unless he was shot at several times and one shot from each round hit his head...by then going slow enough as not to do any fatal damage...
if it was from one shot...and it was 00 shot...and numerous pellet wounds to the head...then the man shot was close enough to the gun that the shot could not spread very far before impact as to cause numerous(depending on what that means) pellet injuries...such a range from one shell would for all practical purposes..blow the dudes head off....that is were i am struggling with....how did it happen exactly?...
Last edited by theseldomscene on Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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twelve pellets in a 00 buck shell..10,12,16,20 and maybe even 28 gauge shotguns all through the same pattern...30" circle at 40 yards...aprox.... and it spreads fast after that...full choke will put 70% of the pellets inside the 30"...
i am a big head ...my head when measured from the bottom of my chin up my face ver the top of my head and down the back of my head foward following my right chin to the starting point was exactly 30 inches...
so if they used the typical 12 ga. 00 shot...and supposing the cops used full choke...what was the lenght of the shell used?(i'll assume the 2 and 3/4 in. it would have 12 pellets...3" would have fifteen...of 00 buckshot)..and if 70% of the twelve pellets hit inside the circle, meaning 8.4 shot hit his head...then the man would have been at least 40 yards from the gun...forty yards with the above mentioned gauge hitting the head...with 70% of its load...death...
so what is numerous...1,2,3,?...that would not be practical for one shell to be shot at a man and he be at a great enough distance for "numerous" pellets for 00 shot 12 gauge not to penetrate his head to the point of death...
or did they shoot him a couple of times?.... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: |
why was the guy doing carpentry on a roof at 4:45a.m.?...(it's a wonder the neighbor's didn't shot him)...
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That happened later in the day. There were two main events on that day: early in the morning the police closed off the park. This would have gone mostly unnoticed, since everyone was still asleep at that time. Later on in the afternoon is when people marched to the park and the crackdown happened.
| theseldomscene wrote: |
ps. i am not defending reagan...just don't understand the shooting thing is all...i am stupid...know this...and i am not arguing against the facts...but i can't see how a person could be close enough to 00 shot and having numerous pellet injuries to the head without it being blown off...and if one was far enough away for the gun so that the pellet of 00 shot would only damage the head, then the odds of having numerous shot injuries would be hard to conceive unless he was shot at several times and one shot from each round hit his head...by then going slow enough as not to do any fatal damage...
if it was from one shot...and it was 00 shot...and numerous pellet wounds to the head...then the man shot was close enough to the gun that the shot could not spread very far before impact as to cause numerous(depending on what that means) pellet injuries...such a range from one shell would for all practical purposes..blow the dudes head off....that is were i am struggling with....how did it happen exactly?... |
Sorry TSS, I don't know the details; it sounds to me like you know a whole lot more about guns than I do. All it says in the article is,
| Quote: | | The Alameda County Sheriff's deputies used shotguns to fire "00" buckshot at people sitting on the roof at the Berkeley Repertory Theater, fatally wounding student James Rector and permanently blinding carpenter Alan Blanchard. Neither man was a protestor. |
Maybe a bunch of officers shot at them at the same time...
Incidentally, here is another important set of facts from the article:
| Quote: |
At least 128 Berkeley citizens were admitted to local hospitals for head trauma, shotgun wounds and other serious injuries inflicted by law enforcement. Many more were treated for minor injuries. Local hospital logs show that 19 police officers or Alameda County Sheriff's deputies were treated for minor injuries; none were hospitalized. |
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Maybe a bunch of officers shot at them at the same time... |
yes...that would explain it...basically showering...peppering the area... |
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IronSharpensIron
House Cat
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Iran-contra affair, in U.S. history, secret arrangement in the 1980s to provide funds to the Nicaraguan contra rebels from profits gained by selling arms to Iran. The Iran-contra affair was the product of two separate initiatives during the administration of President Ronald Reagan. The first was a commitment to aid the contras who were conducting a guerrilla war against the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. The second was to placate “moderates” within the Iranian government in order to secure the release of American hostages held by pro-Iranian groups in Lebanon and to influence Iranian foreign policy in a pro-Western direction.
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Source:http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0825447.html
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Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: |
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And remember that the clandestine war against Nicaragua is the only case in human history where a civilized country (the U.S.) was condemned by the highest court on the planet and ordered to pay restitution.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7002
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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P123...
You offer a lot of information that is not in the article you posted, were you there? Have you interviewed people that were there, or are you just inventing scenarios that seem to support your convoluted assertions?
It is funny though, that no matter what the facts are you have somehow contorted events to blame one man who was not even there and wasn't even on the phone issuing orders to those that were there. You've skipped right over the people who were directly involved and have gone straight to Reagan. I echo Pondering's question:
| Quote: | | how much time have spent outside of a university setting? |
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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