Was there a Jehovah-Christian assembly before 1800?

rarndt01 · Tadpole Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 16 Location: Ohio

What really hurts the JW Christian assembly is the fact that they can not identify their movement before the 18th century. That is from the the 1st century church thru some 1700 years of church history. There were no known Jehovah-Christian assemblies of people before Charles Russell.

Since Jesus Christ founded the church or assembly of believers in him, then they had to exist all through every century of church history in some distinct form? Why? Because Jesus said his church would always exist. But there was and is no Jehovah Witness church organization until AFTER 1800 and something? How do you account for this and claim that the WTS and Jehovah Witnesses of today are God's true church?

Reaper · Hamster Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 86

You state, “What really hurts the JW Christian assembly is the fact that they can not identify their movement before the 18th century. That is from the 1st century church thru some 1700 years of church history. There were no known Jehovah-Christian assemblies of people before Charles Russell.

The truth is they cannot truthfully even identify themselves in the 18th century, for they are a product of late 18th and early 19th century religion, as an organization they did not officially come into existence until the year 1931. Now as to your statement that,” There were no known Jehovah-Christian assemblies of people before Charles Russell.” Actually the truth is there were no Jehovah-Witnesses assemblies even in existence during the lifetime of Charles Russell either, this because their organization did not even exists until 1931, 15 years after the Pastor’s death.

You go on to state,” Since Jesus Christ founded the church or assembly of believers in him, then they had to exist all through every century of church history in some distinct form? Why? Because Jesus said his church would always exist. But there was and is no Jehovah Witness church organization until AFTER 1800 and something?

This is true too, but likewise the same thought equally applies to all the various branches of Christendom, Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, Adventist and etc. None of these churches were founded, i.e. established by our Lord? The fact is that they all owe their existences due to the Reformation movement. Thus they too, like the JW’s have no ground upon which to stand. Nor should any of our Catholic friends gloat, for the Catholic Church as it exist today is but a product of the great apostasy or falling away, and is hardly what its namesake implies.

The true church as it has existed since its founding is strictly un-sectarian, and consequently recognize no sectarian name, believing with Paul, (read 1 Cor 3:1-4) that where one saith I am of Paul, and I of Apollo’s, or I am a Baptist, or I a Methodist, etc., it is an evidence of carnality, and consequently in opposition to the Spirit of Christ.

Did Paul or Apollo’s die for us? What of Calvin, Knox, Wesley or Luther? If so, let us call ourselves theirs. Were we baptized into Christ or was it into the Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, or some other denominational church? If so, we are joined to those bodies and members of them, and should be properly recognized by those names.

But if we were baptized into the one body or church of which Jesus is the one and only Head, then we are members in particular of his body, and the only name appropriate would be his; Scripturally called the "Church of Christ," "Christians," "Church of the first born," and such like general names.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6844 Location: USA

Hmmmmm.......... verrrryyy interesting! 8)

metothezero · Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:41 am Post subject:

Would you say Reaper that one is to be faulted for being a member of such denominations? That if one is a Southern Baptist as myself. Labeling themselves under this title, that they are against the will of God?

Reaper · Hamster Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 86

Reaper · Hamster Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 86

Dear Noah,

We must first clear up a common misperception, contrary to what is generally propagated by both orthodoxy and the JW’s themselves Pastor Russell was not the founder of this religious group. He was never associated with them, nor did he ever claim the name. Pastor Russell died in 1916, while the "Jehovah's Witnesses" did not come into existence until 1931. Linking Pastor Russell with "Jehovah's Witnesses" leaves the decidedly mistaken view that their teachings and beliefs are alike. Such is not the case.

Pastor Russell founded what has been called "The Bible Student's Association." This movement had its beginning in the 1860's in Allegheny, Pa. when some earnest Christians formed a Bible class for advanced Bible study to meet the then rising wave of infidelity. In 1879, Zion's Watch Tower Society was formed, later knows as The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. This Society however was not the central authority for the Bible Students, for all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Society only served to coordinate the activities of the various congregations.

After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916 the purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society changed completely. The teachings of the six volumes of "Studies In The Scriptures", which Pastor Russell wrote on in regards to the bible, were discarded. Those congregations who were in harmony with the New Society relinquished their congregational rule. Thus the Society became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the Society seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell, and before long Judge Rutherford, (the new head of the society) whom the Pastor had dismissed from his staff prior to his death, seized legal control of the Society, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors and established dictatorial control, subsequently declaring that those associated with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were from hence forth to be referred to as "Jehovah's Witnesses" on this earth. Here is where the name emerged -- certainly not in Pastor Russell's time. The new society sued for the right to the name “Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society” and since the Lord had taught that brethren should not sue brethren, those who exited the society refused to contest the matter, and so today the JW’S retain the right to this name.

After Pastor Russell's death, The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society began to rise as a hierarchy over the once independent congregations. Many refused to surrender their Christian liberty and here started the work of separation. As early as 1917 this exodus from the Society began, by 1918 one-forth of all the original Bible Students had left Rutherford and his dictatorial policies preferring rather to respect the truth as it was presented in the teachings of the late Pastor Russell today these are known as “Associated Bible Students” or just plain “Bible Students” if you will. Between 1925 and 1931 Judge Rutherford embarked on a campaign to purge Russell’s followers from the new society and so by the time the new organization had adopted the name Jehovah’s Witnesses over three fourths of those formerly associated with the Bible Students movement in Pastor Russell’s day remained faithful to his teachings by completely separating themselves from Rutherford and the new society known as the JW’s.

The picture is clear to the unbiased mind, the historical data revels beyond a doubt that Bible Students founded by Pastor Russell and Jehovah’s Witnesses founded by Judge Rutherford are two separate movements all together, it is only on account of ignorance and personal prejudice that some continue to dispute this.

Even yet there is one point that tends to be confusing and contradictory, why do some JW’s continue to refer to Pastor Russell as their founder? Certainly it is not because they agree with his basic teachings. In fact, they so vigorously disagree with his basic teachings that they have time and time again categorized us Bible Students as the “evil servant” class who will be eventually in the final judgment annihilated eternally.

What is the sin of Pastor Russell and his Bible Students movement that makes them so evil in their eyes? What is the abominable sin that they have committed that merits eternal destruction? The answer is simply that Bible Students still hold on to the Biblical teachings of Pastor Russell! That means that, therefore they reject Jehovah’s Witnesses’ doctrines. To the JW’s the basic teachings of Bible Students are gross error, worthy of eternal judgment.

Thus it seems rather absurd for the JW’s to claim Pastor Russell as their founder, when they believe that he taught errors. So why do they claim him anyway?

For one reason and one simple reason alone is this claim made, “historic depth”. As a Christian church, the JW’s are neophytes. Since the JW’s only began in 1931, they need historic credibility. Imagine in the 1930s, ’40s or ’50s, saying, “Our Christian group only began in 1931.” To claim Pastor Russell as their founder, however would project them back into the 1800s as a Christian group. (After all, a number of Christian churches had their beginnings in the 1800s.) As evidence of their sensitivity to historic depth, they do a “one-up” on all religious groups by claiming that Able, Adam’s son was the first Jehovah’s Witness. This is really reaching for historic depth! But pretence of historic depth means nothing.

The historic facts are clear, Pastor Russell founded the Bible Students in the 1870s, and Judge Rutherford founded the JW’s in 1931.

Just to illustrate the point, Lutherans and Roman Catholics share a common lineage simply because Lutherans broke away from the Papacy, but nevertheless they are two separate churches. Lutherans believe in Martin Luther’s teachings and the Catholics believe in the teachings of the popes. Merely because the lineage of the Lutherans’ goes back to the popes does not mean the popes are the founders of Lutherans’, no more than merely because the JW’s lineage goes back to Pastor Russell means that he was their founder.

There are however a few similarities of belief between Bible Students and JW’s, but this is not uncommon, Baptist and Presbyterians share common beliefs, so too do Methodist and Adventist. To say that Bible Students and JW’s are the same merely because of their obvious similarities is inaccurate. Just as Baptist and Presbyterians believe in eternal torment as the wages of sin, Bible Students and JW’s believe that the wages of sin is eternal annihilation, but this similarity does not make them the same group no more than the similarity between the Baptist and Presbyterians makes them the same group.

In any case, it is well to observe that Bible Students feel most JW’s are noble-minded people and are just as likely as other people to enjoy the blessings of God’s eternity, we only wished they shared such kindly feelings toward us!

As to your questions,

Charles Taze Russell / Jehovah's Witness wrote that something happened in 1874.

The something that took place in 1874 you refer to was the Second Advent of Christ, his “Parousia’ invisible presence confirmed by both prophecy and chronology. The JW’s differ in that they believe this to have taken placed in 1914.

1. Are you associated with JW or SDA?

No I am not, as I have said I’m a Bible Student

2. What year A.D. did the chronology you present originally get published?

3. And by whom?

Christopher Bowen (1800-1850), rector of a church at Southwark, London, and a pre-millennialist originated the chronology about 1830. It was not long after that other chronologists adopted it, both in Europe and in this country. Edward B. Elliott published it in his Horae Apocalypticae (A Commentary on the Apocalypse), in London in 1851. Grattan Guinness in his “Approaching End of the Age”, then followed Nelson H. Barbour, editor of 'The Midnight Cry," in Rochester, New York and J.H. Paton in Day Dawn, published in Almont, Michigan in 1880.

It was subsequently proven and accepted by Pastor Russell who published it in his “Studies in the Scriptures” series Volume Two, “The Time is at Hand” (1889)

4. Is the originating author of the chronology you present regarded as a prophet?

No, just a man, nor do we consider Pastor Russell a prophet that is in the sense of the word in which you may be likely implying. If you are referring to the prophets of old who were divinely inspired then no he would not fit that picture, but if you are referring to a prophet as one who enlightened by the Holy Spirit publicly expounds the word, an orator, then he fits the picture. Likewise despite what some may imagine we do not worship the man, we fully realize that he was merely the Lord’s chosen messenger, the angel (or messenger) to the last stage of the Gospel Church (The Laodicean stage, Rev 3:14) at the end of the Gospel age, preceding the Millennial Age, the “the faithful and wise servant” whom the Lord appointed to distribute “meat in due season” to the household of faith (Matt 24:45).

However very few recognized him as the Lord’s chosen messenger, being blinded by preconceived ideas and bigotries propagated by the Church Nominal (orthodoxy) and so they miss out on the “food” the Lord provides for his true people here at the end of the age, food necessary to making ones calling and election sure.

Your servant, Reaper

noah · Tadpole Joined: 21 Aug 2006 Posts: 25

Reaper:

Thank you for answering my questions with clarity and explaining the difference between these two groups.

So then the messenger you say was Charles Taze Russell and his message was "Studies in Scriptures"?
Did the Lord appear to Charles as he did to Paul or did Charles just believe that he was a chosen messenger?

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1942

Reaper,

Alot of interesting information, but I think a little fiction too. Surprised

You don't seem to be consistant with your beliefs either. Confused or disgusted

For instance, you cited 1 Cor 3: 1-4 and then you proceeded to speak against it.

Reaper · Hamster Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 86

Noah asked, so then the messenger you say was Charles Taze Russell and his message was "Studies in Scriptures"?

In Reply, the scriptures imply that the Lord has provided for the needs of his Church from its very conception even unto our day at the “end of the age” seven specific angels (messengers or “stars”), held in his right hand (denoting his favor and supervision) who were commissioned to distribute “meat in due season” to the Household of Faith (Rev 1:16,20; Psa 145:15,16; Matt 24:45) that is these messengers would be provided to relay certain bits of information deemed necessary for both the correction and support of the one true church as it progressed throughout history.

The truth as to God’s plans and purposes has been over the past 2000 years of the Christian area slowly been made known to God’s true children, this unfolding comes by way of the Lord’s instruction through his word, however many of the truths contain in the scriptures have been purposely hidden until the due time for their revilement and until that time no matter how devote the man of God may have been they could not be disclosed (Dan 12:8-10). It is our belief the majority of these things; “the finished mystery” would not be disclosed (un-sealed) until the last stage of Church History, the Laodicean period.

Throughout the scriptures the number seven denotes perfection or completion, thus with the message (“voice”) of the seventh messenger “the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.” (Rev 10:7)

God’s plan of the Ages has been sealed symbolically in a great “scroll” which none were worthy to open until following the great sacrifice of our Lord, the “Lamb of God”, worthy is he to take the scroll to open its seals (Rev 5: 1-10) of which it is expressly stated that there were seven.

With the seals on the scroll, one would only be able to partially read the outside, but the inside could not be read. That is the way Gods plan was known before Christ, in that only bits and pieces of it were able to be seen, the Old Testament. The better part or the New Testament was hidden from sight, on the inside. This scroll was sealed up in a manner such, that as each seal is removed, in 7 consecutive steps over time one would be able to unroll the scroll a little bit further, and read a little more of the message. By the time that you would reach the seventh seal, you would be able to read the entire message. This we believe was only possible by the time of the seventh messenger when the mystery (the plan of God) would be finished fully revealed (1 Cor 13:10-12, Rev 10:7). Each stage of the church would receive another portion of light, as each seal was undone.

“The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, that shines brighter and brighter until the perfect day [the millennial day].” Prov 4:18

Pastor Russell is seen to emerge as the messenger to Laodicean and the harvest church. His unique contributions have given rise to unanimous recognition and acclaim by Bible Students for such a position: a Bible-centered ministry that stressed Christ's ransom sacrifice, revealed the Divine Plan of the Ages for blessing all mankind, discarded errors of the past, clarified the High Calling, opened an awareness of the end times and the parousia of Christ, and especially called attention to the imminent establishment of God's Kingdom on earth.

Pastor Russell’s first published work was entitled “The Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return” (first published in 1877—50,000 copies). It was written to show that the object of our Lord’s return is to bless all the families of the earth. Brother Russell showed that Christ’s coming would be thief-like. He would not return in the flesh, but as a spirit being, invisible to man (John 14:14-19); and that the gathering of his church and the separation of true (wheat) and false (Tares) believers would continue during the end of this age without the world’s nor even the nominally professing church being aware of it.

In 1876, at the age of 24, Brother Russell closed his Philadelphia business. Thereafter, for the next forty years until his death in 1916, he devoted his time and resources to traveling, preaching, and writing. The first issue of his magazine appeared in July 1879. Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence continued as a monthly publication until December 1891 and semi-monthly thereafter until his death. In 1881 he published Food for Thinking Christians and Tabernacle Shadows (about 1,400,000 copies each), these were followed by six volumes originally issued under the title Millennial Dawn, later renamed, as a series, Studies in the Scriptures (over 12,000,000 to date.)

We believe that what is contained in the Studies in the Scriptures series is an outline of the finished mystery, the Harvest Message the Lord’s final provision for the Church in this the last stage of the Church in the end of the Gospel Age as relayed by and through the Lord’s chosen vessel, the faithful and wise servant, Pastor Russell.

Noah asked, did the Lord appear to Charles as he did to Paul or did Charles just believe that he was a chosen messenger?

In Reply, Pastor Russell never claimed to be chosen by the Lord as the seventh messenger, or to be considered the “faithful and wise servant” these claims were made by fellow brethren who saw in the character of the man in his modesty and humility and in his works, writings and etc., that he was indeed a chosen vessel of the Lord, and that his appearance at that specific time suggested that he was indeed the messenger spoken of.

His own words in regards to the “faithful and wise servant” were,

“To our understanding this would not imply that ‘that servant’ or steward, used as a channel for the circulation of the ‘meat in due season,’ would be the originator of that meat, nor inspired, nor infallible. Quite to the contrary, we may be sure that whoever the Lord will so use, as a truth-distributing agent, will be very humble and unassuming, as well as very zealous for the Master’s glory; so that he would not think of claiming authorship or ownership of the truth, but would merely dispense it zealously, as his Master’s gift, to his Master’s ‘servants’ and ‘household.” D613

Pastor Russell never claimed to originate Bible truths, but rather to recover the truths held by the First Century church. He succeeded more than any other person, of course not without controversy. Wearied with the "Dark Age" theories of Christendom, he inspired hope and faith in the hearts of the masses, and like the Lord, the multitudes clamored to hear him.

Your servant, Reaper

Reaper · Hamster Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 86

TBax states in reference to what we have stated thus far, “A lot of interesting information, but I think a little fiction too. You don't seem to be consistent with your beliefs either. For instance, you cited 1 Cor 3:1-4 and then you proceeded to speak against it.”

We stated, The true church as it has existed since its founding is strictly un-sectarian, and consequently recognize no sectarian name, believing with Paul, (read 1 Cor 3:1-4) that where one saith I am of Paul, and I of Apollo’s, or I am a Baptist, or I a Methodist, etc., it is an evidence of carnality, and consequently in opposition to the Spirit of Christ.

Did Paul or Apollo’s die for us? What of Calvin, Knox, Wesley or Luther? If so, let us call ourselves theirs. Were we baptized into Christ or was it into the Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, or some other denominational church? If so, we are joined to those bodies and members of them, and should be properly recognized by those names.

But if we were baptized into the one body or church of which Jesus is the one and only Head, then we are members in particular of his body, and the only name appropriate would be his; Scripturally called the "Church of Christ," "Christians," "Church of the first born," and such like general names.

TBax states, yet you say, in effect, you belong to Pastor Russell's teachings, "and there are jealousy and strife among YOU". I respect Charles Russell as a man who was interested in the truth that was hidden by the apostasy foretold by Jesus' first century congregation.

In Reply, your inference is incorrect we never stated that we belonged to Pastor Russell’s teachings, but rather that we preferred to respect the truth (the Lord’s Word, the holy scriptures) as it was presented (interpreted) in the teachings of the late Pastor Russell. There is a difference between “belonging”, i.e. binding oneself to someone’s teachings and merely respecting them. We are Christians not Russellites.

As for strife’s and divisions amongst the church, unfortunately these take place, but the Lord is able to cause the wrath of man to praise him (Psa 76:10), and so these divisions which took place following the death of Pastor Russell were used by the Lord as siftings to weed out those not thoroughly loyal to his truth as it was presented through his chosen vessel.

At that time words to this effect were directed to those who still held to the Harvest Message of present truth as presented by Pastor Russell, who refuse to accept the changes of so-called “new light” then being promulgated. It is the same inverse reasoning that Ahab used. “You are troubling spiritual Israel,” they told them. “By rejecting our new ideas, you are causing divisions in the church. You must adjust to our views and not rock the boat.” So who actually caused the divisions? Certainly not those who remained staunch in the truth!

TBax states, I do not view any mere imperfect man as the founder of my faith, or religion as Jesus is the founder.

In Reply, likewise do we, however our reference to Pastor Russell as being a “founder” was not in reference to the message he distributed, but to the Bible Students Association, which he founded, just as Judge Rutherford was the founder of the Jehovah’s Witness Organization.

TBax states, you also claim Babylon is Christendom, of which God told his people at Rev 18:4 “And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.”

Yet you claim people can remain there, as long as they call themselves "Christian". Should we listen to God and get out of Christendom (Babylon the Great), or should we stay there and receive part of her plagues.

In Reply, this was the first time I spoke to Metothezero in regards to this issue, likewise it may also have been the first time anyone has spoken to him on this issue, therefore his understanding of this issue, i.e. the true nature and condition of Babylon, may not yet be fully comprehended and so as I had stated “the Lord only holds us responsible for what we know, (understand) in regards to this matter not what we do not.” Until one comes to realize the truth on this issue and receives the call from God to come forth they cannot be faulted for remaining where they do not know they don’t belong.

TBax states, Are you saying we are to attend Babylon the Greats churches to meet with God's people there? Seems very inconsistent and against God's word.

In Reply, I don’t believe I either said that or implied it. I said: If they have “ears to hear” God’s voice (his word) alone will tell them plainly to take this step, and give the reason why they should do so. As it is written, “…He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.” (John 10:3,4) Since it is the Lord who calls his people out of Babylon, we cannot doubt that, whatever may be his agencies for giving the call; all truly his people will hear it one way or another.

TBax states, also, just because an organization was legally established at a certain year, does not mean the ideals weren't practiced prior to its legal establishment.

In Reply, a distinction is made between the truths we shared and the “ideas we practiced”, the ideas practiced by the new society were not those, which the Bible Students had adhered to prior to the conception of this new society.

TBax states, Abel was counted among the faithful witnesses of Jehovah. Jesus is called the faithful and true witness. By calling ourselves Jehovah's Witnesses, we are following Jesus example, and attach ourselves to all the faithful witnesses of Jehovah.

In Reply, in the general sense of the term you are correct, that is all who claim the name of Christ and who faithfully to the best of their ability follow his example are witnesses before God, however in the truest sense of the word the Jewish people are the true “witnesses” as the Prophet Isaiah so states,

“For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in thy stead. Since thou hast been precious in my sight, [and] honorable, and I have loved thee; therefore will I give men in thy stead, and peoples instead of thy life. Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west… Ye are my witnesses saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me… I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange [god] among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God… Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel, who I have chosen: Thus saith Jehovah that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob my servant; and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen... Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? And ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? Yea, there is no Rock; I know not any. (Isa 43:3-5,10,12; 44:1,2,8)

Who else was once delivered from Egypt, at one time offered sacrifices and were to be re-gathered from all over the world to their homeland? What are the implications of someone else taking over this name? Its called “Replacement Theology”

Nevertheless my brother I bear no ill will toward you or for that matter any Jehovah’s Witness.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1942

Reaper,

Hi.

Regarding:Ye are my witnesses saith Jehovah

Dust

RR · Little Guppy Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 37 Location: USA

Nobby · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject:

RR, rarndt01 the member that you just answered
Last Posted: 04 Aug 2004

Just so you know. Very Happy

Nobby