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| Do you think Islam comes from God? |
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| No |
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82% |
[ 14 ] |
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Islam versus Christianity
Newbie Alert
Joined: 28 May 2006
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: Islam versus Christianity |
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Let us discuss Christianity and Islam keeping in mind that there is only one God (!), that He is the One who created all nations and that He supposedly loves all nations very much since He has created all of us without a single exception. Christianity teaches to be forgiving to all and love all. Islam has a bit different view on this. What is your opinion? To open the discussion, here are some abstracts from the story of Ali Sina, former believer in Allah.
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Q.58: 22
You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger…
Q.3: 118-120
O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse.
Q.5: 51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya’ to one another…
The evidence is in the Bosnia and Kosovo crisis; where Christian countries, waged war against another Christian country, to liberate Muslims.
It became obvious to me that Muslims are accepted by all the people of the world yet our prophet wants us to hate them, to disassociate ourselves from them, to force them into our way of life or kill them, subdue them and make them pay Jizya. How silly! How pathetic! How inhumane! No wonder there is so much inexplicable hate of the West and of the Jews among Muslims. It was Muhammad who inseminated the hate and the distrust of the non-believers among his followers. How can Muslims integrate with other nations while holding these hateful messages of the Quran as the words of God?
There are many Muslims who immigrate to non-Muslim countries and are received with open arms. Many of them get into politics and become part of the ruling elite. We suffer no discrimination in the non-Islamic countries. But see how our holy prophet tells us to deal with non-Muslims where we are the majority:
Q.9: 29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Also find the following verses completely against my conscience. I love all humanity and wish everyone to be happy in this world and forgiven in the next. But my holy prophet bade me not to seek forgiveness for the unbelievers even if they are my parents and beloved ones.
Q.9: 113
It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah’s forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in state of disbelief).
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
I felt the above story was a manifest injustice. Muhammad condoned a man killing a pregnant mother and his own unborn child just because he said that she insulted the Prophet!
(Arabs used to sleep with their maid slaves. Quran perpetuates this tradition Q.33: 52 Muhammad himself slept with Mariyah the maid slave of Hafsa his wife without marrying her.)
Forgiving someone for killing another human being just because he said she insulted Muhammad is unacceptable. What if that man was lying to escape punishment? What does this story say about Muhammad’s sense of Justice? During the past 1400 years, how many husbands escaped punishment for killing their innocent wives by accusing them of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith made them get away with it?
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4359
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The verse "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side or exile from the land...most merciful" was revealed about polytheists. If any of them repents before they are arrested, it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment, which he deserves.”
How could a messenger of God maim and crucify people on the account that they resist accepting him? Could such a person really be a messenger of God? Wasn’t there a better man with more moral and ethical fortitude to bear this mighty responsibility? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Yes, of course there are bad things in the Koran.
Have you read the Old Testament lately? In it, God is malicious and spiteful. He kills innocent people by the thousands.
I think that condemning the Koran while supporting the Old Testament is an extremely contradictory position to take.
But if you're trying to get people to agree with you that Jesus is a nicer, more compassionate, more open, and more accepting guy than Mohammed, then you can add me to your list.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6279
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Islam versus Christianity wrote: | | During the past 1400 years, how many husbands escaped punishment for killing their innocent wives by accusing them of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith made them get away with it? |
Don't forget honor killings in general. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Islam versus Christianity wrote: | | During the past 1400 years, how many husbands escaped punishment for killing their innocent wives by accusing them of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith made them get away with it? |
Don't forget honor killings in general. |
Yeah, can you think of a worse place on Earth for a woman to be born than the tribal regions of Pakistan?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6279
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Yeah, can you think of a worse place on Earth for a woman to be born than the tribal regions of Pakistan? |
An active volcano.
But I understand what you mean  |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | An active volcano.
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I'm not so sure; this might actually be debatable. If born in an active volcano, at least things will be over quickly. If born into tribal Pakistan, a woman has to live with extreme oppression and possibly torture for many years...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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splazzatch
Moderator
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| I would choose the active volcano...at least there you would be killed for simply being born in the wrong place...where as in tribal pakistan you're killed for believing the wrong thing. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| splazzatch wrote: | | I would choose the active volcano...at least there you would be killed for simply being born in the wrong place...where as in tribal pakistan you're killed for believing the wrong thing. |
Hold on there cowboy... I just want to make sure that I properly understand what you're saying here:
Are you saying that the women who are tortured and killed in Pakistan are being punished by God for being heathens?
The women in Pakistan are not being killed for because THEY believe the wrong thing; they are being killed because the MEN who control them are evil!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| I trust you two will not have the two words, "culture" and "religion" mixed up here. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | I trust you two will not have the two words, "culture" and "religion" mixed up here. |
Culture and religion are not distinct things. They strongly influence oneanother. It is impossible to tell where one stops and the other begins.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: | | I trust you two will not have the two words, "culture" and "religion" mixed up here. |
Culture and religion are not distinct things. They strongly influence oneanother. It is impossible to tell where one stops and the other begins. |
In light of what you two are saying, thats wrong.
Firstly, CULTURE doesnt influence RELIGION. Show me how?
You are obviously mixing in the two things like anybodies business, to suit your ideas. Very dangerous and very wrong.
Id strongly suggest you get clear as to what is religion and what is culture.
| Quote: | | "It is impossible to tell where one stops and the other begins" |
No. Religion has its clear guidelines, and one cannot just mix something that is blatantly against Islam, as if it were part of the religion.
I trust you will make more informed judgements in future, before linking preposterus things with religion. Thanks. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
In light of what you two are saying, thats wrong.
Firstly, CULTURE doesnt influence RELIGION. Show me how?
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Of course it does! Culture STRONGLY influences the way in which people practice their religions. Islam is just one example of this. It is practiced an many, many countries, and almost every one has different religious traditions and practices. In North Africa, female genital mutilation is practiced by Muslims. In tribal Pakistan, honour killings are practiced by Muslims. In most other muslim countries, these primitive practices don't take place.
It is clear that different cultures affect the way people practice a religion.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
No. Religion has its clear guidelines, and one cannot just mix something that is blatantly against Islam, as if it were part of the religion.
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Yeah right. Tell that to the poor girls who are being mutilated in North Africa. Tell it to the women in Pakistan who get gang-raped for something that their cousins did.
Tell it to Christians in America who support the war in Iraq.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
In light of what you two are saying, thats wrong.
Firstly, CULTURE doesnt influence RELIGION. Show me how?
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Of course it does! Culture STRONGLY influences the way in which people practice their religions. Islam is just one example of this. It is practiced an many, many countries, and almost every one has different religious traditions and practices. In North Africa, female genital mutilation is practiced by Muslims. In tribal Pakistan, honour killings are practiced by Muslims. In most other muslim countries, these primitive practices don't take place.
It is clear that different cultures affect the way people practice a religion. |
Nonsense. Notice how you have slightly twisted the argument. Im not talking about the way people practise their religions, im talking about the religion itself and how culture influences it (or doesn't). So what culture influenced Allah's mind when he lay down Islam?
Seems to me, you're slightly confused. Do you know what term is given to those things which are just introduced into Islam, mostly from people's traditions? Its called bid'ah, or innovation, something which isnt liked at all in Islam.
| P1234567890 wrote: | Yeah right. Tell that to the poor girls who are being mutilated in North Africa. Tell it to the women in Pakistan who get gang-raped for something that their cousins did.
Tell it to Christians in America who support the war in Iraq. |
Need i remind you, FGM took place before Islam, is in Christianity and was practised in America until 1958.
Some Muslim scholars believe FGC is practiced as a result of ignorance and misconceived religious fervor rather than for reasons of true religious doctrine--and any religious basis for the practice is denied. Many Arab Muslims interpret different passages as being in opposition to FGC, and believe the practice to be un-Islamic.
As Amnesty Inter'nl says: "FGC predates Islam and is not practised by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension." |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
Some Muslim scholars believe FGC is practiced as a result of ignorance and misconceived religious fervor rather than for reasons of true religious doctrine--and any religious basis for the practice is denied. Many Arab Muslims interpret different passages as being in opposition to FGC, and believe the practice to be un-Islamic.
As Amnesty Inter'nl says: "FGC predates Islam and is not practised by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension." |
I think that you're just proving my point here. My point was that culture strongly influences religion. In the case of North Africa, FGM was part of the culture long before Islam came along, and then after Islam took over, FGM continued DESPITE the fact that it is definitely not justified by the Koran.
In other words, the culture strongly influences in the way the people practice their religion, just like I sad.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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