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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7002
Location: USA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Back to Basics - The Gospel |
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Christ is Lord (Rom. 10:9). Jesus Christ is truly God, and yet is a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit (Jn. 1:1, 14, 5:18, 8:24; Mat. 28:19).
All have sinned against God and fall short of His glory (Rom. 3:23). We are dead in our sins (Eph. 2:1-3).
God loves us while we are yet sinners (Jn. 3:16, Rom. 5:8).
Christ died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3, 1 Jn. 4:14). He assumed a human nature (Jn. 1:14, Rom. 8:3, Phil. 2:6-11) and lived a sinless life (2 Cor. 5:21, Heb. 4:15, 5:9, 7:26, 1 Pet. 1:18-19, 1 Jn. 3:5). At the cross, He provided:a) Atonement (propitiation, reconciliation), a penal substitution, an offering of sacrifice, a price paid (Rom. 5:8-11). The atonement secured the application of:
b) Redemption, the payment of a ransom (Mk. 10:45, Heb. 9:15), “buying back” from the bondage of sin (1 Cor. 6:20, 7:23, Gal. 1:4).
Christ was raised on the third day (Rom. 6:4-7, 1 Cor. 15:4, 20-22), and ascended into heaven after forty days (Acts 1:2-3, 9-11, 2:33, 1 Tim. 3:16), and was enthroned at the right hand of God (Mk. 16:9, Eph. 1:20, Heb. 1:3) where He constantly makes intercession for His people (Rom. 8:34, Heb. 9:24, 1 Jn. 2:1) until He returns as Judge (Mat. 24:30-31, 25:31-32, Jn. 5:22, 27, Acts 10:42, 17:31).
Regeneration, a new birth (Jn. 3:3, Tit. 3:5) that makes us new creatures in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) through the work of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:5-8).
Faith (Rom. 3:25, 4:5, 10:9). Saving faith consists not merely of knowledge and belief (Mat. 13:20-21, Ja. 2:19-20) but of trust (2 Cor. 1:9-10), self-surrender (Lk. 9:23, Gal. 2:20), and obedience (Rom. 6:17, 16:25-26). Faith is not a result of our own endeavor, but is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8). Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon Him alone for salvation (Jn. 14:6, Acts 4:12).a) We are saved by grace, not by works: Faith alone (Rom. 3:28, 4:5 Gal. 2:16).
b) Confess with the tongue Christ as Lord (Rom. 10:9).
Repentance (Mat. 4:17, 10:7; Lk. 4:43, 24:46-47, 13:3, 5).True repentance represents a turning to God, a turning from evil, and an intent to serve God (1 Thess. 1:9). It involves the intellectual recognition of sin (Rom. 3:20), an emotional change of feeling for sin committed against a holy and just God (2 Cor. 7:9-10), and a willful turning away from sin (Acts 26:18, 20, 1 Pet. 3:11).
Justification, a forensic (i.e. legal) declaration of acquittal that excludes all possibility of condemnation (Rom. 5:1, 19, 8:33-34), providing salvation from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9). We are justified by grace through faith (Rom. 3:24-25). Justification is by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness: As our sins were reckoned to Christ, so Christ’s righteousness is reckoned to us (Phil. 3:9).
Adoption into the family of God (Jn. 1:12, Gal 4:4-7, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 9:15), into a union with Christ (Rom. 6:5, 7:4) where we have peace with God (Rom. 5:1) and eternal life (Jn. 3:15).
Sanctification [positional], to be set apart, to be made holy. A status conferred not by moral transformation but by the sacrifice of Christ (Heb. 10:10).
Progressive sanctification, an ongoing process that conforms us to the image of Christ (Phil. 2:13, 2 Cor. 3:18, Heb. 12:14, 2 Pet. 3:18).
Perseverance through divine preservation. God, through the Spirit, secures the final salvation of all true believers (Jn. 6:37-40, 10:28-29, Rom. 8:39-39, Phil. 1:6, 1 Pet. 1:5).
Glorification, redemption of the physical body. (Rom. 8:23, 1 Cor. 15:53, 2 Cor. 3:18, Phil. 3:20-21). We will be like Christ (1 Jn. 3:2) and will dwell with Him (Rev. 21:3-4) for eternity (Mat. 25:46).
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: Back to basics |
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Hi Rev JP,
I find that we are fairly close neighbors. I drive thru Roseville about every 2 weeks. I live in Smartville.
Back to your post.
I believe your post is exactly why the church is groveling in confussion and defeat today. I beg your indulgence.
| Quote: | | All have sinned against God and fall short of His glory (Rom. 3:23). We are dead in our sins (Eph. 2:1-3). |
The quote 'all have sinned' is not meant to leave you in sin. On the contrary, the verse is meant to show God's impartial redemption.
23)"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" is followed with a glorious statement of forgiveness.
24) "BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS.
25)WHOM GOD HATH SET FORTH TO BE A PROPTIIATION THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, TO DECLARE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, THROUGH THE FORBEARANCE OF GOD"
Then you add "we are dead in our sins", but that is not what the Word says.
Eph 2:1 says, "And you hath he quickened, who WERE dead in trespasses and sins"
When you say we are dead in our sins you change the whole meaning of who we are in Christ.
You did the same thing with:
| Quote: | | God loves us while we are yet sinners (Jn. 3:16, Rom. 5:8). |
Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Failing to acknowledge the tense of the words in a passage of scripture is one of the most dangereous of deceptions.
How can one say that he is more than a conqueror if he is still dead in his sins?
If one is still dead in sin then what was the purpose of Christ?
How can I be a most beloved child of God if I am dead in sin.
If I am dead in sin then what is Paul talking about in Romans 6:2, "...How shall we that are dead TO sin, live any longer therein"?
If I am still dead in sin then where is The Faith?
If I am still dead in sin then how can God ask me to be Holy?
If I am dead in sin then how am I to reckon myself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord? Romans 6:ll.
We are missing the Glorious redemption with our 'tenses', so to speak. We must not assume or change the meaning of the message of the Gospel that Paul preached, for it is the Gospel of salvation to everyone that believes.
In Christ,
Judy |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7002
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Nana,
The Gospel, the Good News of Christ Jesus is a message to the lost, not to those already redeemed (well, not entirely, but for clarifications sake).
The gospel is the message of despair, hope, redemption, and then joy eternal. What it appears that you are doing is looking at it from the veiwpoint of the regenerate man and forgetting the message we are to share to the unregenerate man - those who are not born again.
Now if you are a Universal Restorationist, then it doesn't matter to you does it? According to UR all anyone has to do to be saved is exist.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Rev JP
| Quote: | | Now if you are a Universal Restorationist, then it doesn't matter to you does it? According to UR all anyone has to do to be saved is exist. |
I am not a Universal Restorationist. In fact I wonder why they read the Bible at all because they do not believe in consequences for sin or at least I don't think they do. I am not well versed in their doctrine.
I really don't understand exactly where you are coming from? If I did not quote to you examples of your error then how can you accuse me of being something. Accusing me of being something I am not is only avoiding the real issue.
| Quote: | | The gospel is the message of despair, hope, redemption, and then joy eternal. What it appears that you are doing is looking at it from the veiwpoint of the regenerate man and forgetting the message we are to share to the unregenerate man - those who are not born again. |
I did not look at the verses you quoted from any other view point than to believe what the Bible truly says. Perhaps there is something missing in your doctrine that is causing you to change the meaning. You cannot accuse me of changing the meaning. I only quoted to you exactly how the passages read.
I believe that you want those passages to match the doctrine of your church but they simply do not. It would be far better for you to humble yourself and admit your error than to be mislead.
I refuse to and do not agree with changing the Word around to match false doctrine.
In Christ, Judy |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7002
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Nana,
I really don't know what you are getting so upset about. I did not accuse you of anything - I said IF...
From your post it began to sound as if you believed everyone is saved, just because. However, I was careful not to state that you promoted such or that you believed such. I DID say IF.
Let's look at your post closer then, shall we?
| Quote: | | The quote 'all have sinned' is not meant to leave you in sin. On the contrary, the verse is meant to show God's impartial redemption. |
This is probably what caused the most confusion. Where did I say that Rom 3:23 was meant to leave anyone in sin?
| Quote: | | When you say we are dead in our sins you change the whole meaning of who we are in Christ. |
This is the next confusing part, and what caused me to suspect some sort of UR idealism. The Gospel starts with those who are NOT in Christ, all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God. It is through faith and acceptance of Christ Jesus that one comes into Christ, so as I stated the Gospel is a message first and foremost, to the LOST. It is a message of despair (all have sinned) and then one of hope, redemption, and joy eternal.
| Quote: | | Failing to acknowledge the tense of the words in a passage of scripture is one of the most dangereous of deceptions. |
I never said anything remotely resembling disagreement with this. God loves us while we are yet sinners (the despair turning to hope in that He sent His Son to save us while we were yet sinners).
| Quote: |
How can one say that he is more than a conqueror if he is still dead in his sins?
If one is still dead in sin then what was the purpose of Christ?
How can I be a most beloved child of God if I am dead in sin.
If I am dead in sin then what is Paul talking about in Romans 6:2, "...How shall we that are dead TO sin, live any longer therein"?
If I am still dead in sin then where is The Faith?
If I am still dead in sin then how can God ask me to be Holy?
If I am dead in sin then how am I to reckon myself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord? Romans 6:ll. |
All of this appears to be from a misunderstanding on your part. I never said that those IN Christ were still dead in sin, did I?
| Quote: | | We are missing the Glorious redemption with our 'tenses', so to speak. We must not assume or change the meaning of the message of the Gospel that Paul preached, for it is the Gospel of salvation to everyone that believes. |
No ma'am, WE were not missing anything. Unfortunately I must state that it was you who missed it when reading my post.
Again, I'm sorry you seem to have been so upset by this thread, but it really appears that it all stemmed from your misunderstanding the post and the scriptures contained therein.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I am not a Universal Restorationist. In fact I wonder why they read the Bible at all because they do not believe in consequences for sin or at least I don't think they do. I am not well versed in their doctrine. |
Hi nana,
I do not wish to change the course of this thread to the topic of UR, I just wanted to clear up any misconception you might have regarding the implications of the UR doctrine. If you would like to discuss this further, you could come discuss the issue in this thread I started with the intentions of discussing the Biblical merits of a particular (and quite unpopular) universalist paradigm: http://www.bible-discussion.com/message-board-forum/viewtopic.php?t=3796&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
There are many varieties of Christian Universalists, just as there are many varieties of Trinitarians. Some indeed deny any conscious punishment after death, but I don't think this is supported by what scripture informs us concerning God's Justice, or Love for that matter (I believe in a tough Love)  I find myself more in line with Gregory of Nyssa who believed in post-mortem punishment for the unsaved consisting of purgation by the refining fire of God.
I believe that every man will reap what he sows, whether in the spirit or the flesh. Unlike many Christians who, because of a logically incoherent understanding of God's Justice and Love (exemplified in the logically- incoherent, morally-perverse and scripturally-unsound doctrines of both a substitutional atonement), believe that they will escape the punishment that they deserve, I take the idea of God's Justice seriously: God is not mocked.
Hope that helps.
Peace!
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."
Last edited by apocatastasis on Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now if you are a Universal Restorationist, then it doesn't matter to you does it? According to UR all anyone has to do to be saved is exist. |
RevJP, by that logic you would think that UR implies that everyone is always saved. I, for one, believe the Bible teaches that we are progressively saved through Faith in Christ. I think we've been through this before, though. Seeing that you have an inadequate understanding of what Christian universalism entails, I think you might benefit from rejoining the discussion in the Debate forum. I have a hunch that we can make communicative progress if we just keep it as slow-paced and thorough as possible.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP wrote: | Quote: | | God loves us while we are yet sinners (Jn. 3:16, Rom. 5:8). |
Very true!
Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us."
nana wrote: | Quote: | Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Failing to acknowledge the tense of the words in a passage of scripture is one of the most dangereous of deceptions.
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Actually, it's in the present tense, as you will find if you check the Greek. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1157097043-7286.html#8
| Quote: | | How can I be a most beloved child of God if I am dead in sin. |
I don't know how, but Romans 5:8 tells us this is the case: God is a sinner lover. It may be hard for you and I to imagine, let alone try, loving those who trespass against us, but the Bible tells us that God is Love and that He is forever able to forgive.
Peace!
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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quality entertainment....  |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| apocatastasis wrote: | | Quote: | | How can I be a most beloved child of God if I am dead in sin. |
I don't know how, but Romans 5:8 tells us this is the case: God is a sinner lover. It may be hard for you and I to imagine, let alone try, loving those who trespass against us, but the Bible tells us that God is Love and that He is forever able to forgive.
Peace! |
uh...read chapter 5, 6, and 7 together  ...we are raised in newness of life...because we since HIM are dead to sin...not dead in sin...which we were before HIM...you err...again...so now we in HIM are not dead in sin...but alive in HIM...why is context so hard for you?....and that is for those in HIM alone as the context plainly says...so those not in HIM...life is not for them... |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | uh...read chapter 5, 6, and 7 together |
uh...I did. Now what? And are the roll-eyes necessary for you to make your point?
| Quote: | | ...we are raised in newness of life |
Yes, insofar as we walk with Him.
| Quote: | | ...because we since HIM are dead to sin |
Only isnofar as walk with Him.
| Quote: | | ...not dead in sin...which we were before HIM... |
We are still sinners, TSS. Did you forget that? Where there is sin there is death.
| Quote: | | you err...again... |
Error is not uncommon in my life.
| Quote: | | so now we in HIM are not dead in sin...but alive in HIM... |
Insofar as we are in Him, we are alive. Insofar as we are carnal, we are dead. We have not been transformed into incorruption yet.
| Quote: | | why is context so hard for you?.... |
Er, you haven't mentioned anything about context. Where did I go wrong?
TSS, if you want to debate this, join in the other thread. I had no intention of debating in this thread.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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mtimber
Lion King
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1216
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
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The same strategy has once again been adopted by TSS:
1. Say that the argument has no point.
2. Claim that the counter-argument has been made and posted.
3. Insult said person when the person asks for the evidence of the mysterious answer that can not be seen. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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sorry apoc...you should reread it then...cause we are alive in HIM...(chapter five and six...like i recommended)...and so...to bad for u..r...and if you didn't want to discuss it here...why did you?...so in that you show your very words to be untrustworthy....unless you thought you should just speak and all be silent in the face of your comedy....
and mark...nice try...but you have less then they do in your doctrine..
maybe there is something on the subject you'd like to babble...no?..oh  ...i know, i know... then just make something up like you always do... |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5284
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to say this once this forum is for Christian fellowship! It is not for debating & arguing. Take it somewhere else! There is an area for debating & it's easly seen!
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| yes sir... |
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