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mag_dala55
Tadpole
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: MEN vs. WOMEN |
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How could God forbid women to speak in the churches in the following?
1 Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Is this not male chauvinism? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: MEN vs. WOMEN |
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| mag_dala55 wrote: |
Is this not male chauvinism? |
Yes, it is. But it is pretty obvious that the Bible is sexist, so you aren't really saying anything controvercial here.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: |
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It wasn't God forbidding women to speak, it was one of the powerhungry men that decided to gain totalitarian control over, and corrupt, the teachings of Jesus.
Makes me think of something I read once...
| Thorgils [surname unknown] - ca 1090 C.E. wrote: | Then I knew: the worship of the White Christ suits those who seek to dominate others. It is not the belief of the humble, but of despots and tyrrants. When a man claims he's specially selected by the White Christ, then all that follow that religion must treat him as if they were revering the God himself.
This is a contradiction of all that the God is meant to stand for, yet I have witnessed how, among rulers of men, it is the truly ruthless and the ambitious who adopt the Christian faith, then use it to surpress the dignity of their fellows.
Naturally this would horrify the inoffensive monks at this monastery, and some of them are genuine and selfless men. But they are blind to the fact that even here, within the minister, they bow their heads in obedience to their superiors, whatever their quality.
How different it is for those that follow the Elder Faith. As a Sworn follower of Harald of Norway, as his King's man, I never had to bend my knee to him, either in an act of submission, or to acnowledge his leadership.
When I was a priest of the Elder Faith back in Väster Gotland, I would have been chocked if those that came to me for guidance or to intervene with the Gods, had believed that I was divinely appointed.
I was judged only for my knowledge of the anicent lore.
So this is the ultimate power of the White Christ faith: It is a belief suited to despots and tyrrants who would curb men's independence. |
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | It wasn't God forbidding women to speak, it was one of the powerhungry men that decided to gain totalitarian control over, and corrupt, the teachings of Jesus.
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All of the Abrahamic religions treat women badly and try to control them. There was a time on Earth when women were respected and not thought to be evil temptresses.
Unfortunately, even in our secularized societies, women are still considered to be inferior. It's part of our culture. Even in something as simple as economics, women make considerably less than men, even for the same job.
We've got a long way to go, and religion certainly isn't helping. Especially Islam; they treat their women particularly badly.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Even in something as simple as economics, women make considerably less than men, even for the same job. |
Studies have shown this to be false. On the whole, yes, women average less than men. But not for performing the same duties. Women make less than men because the top earners in the world are men, not because they're being paid less than men in equal positions. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
Location: WV
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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P, when was the time women were respected and not treated as objects for men to enjoy???
The truth of the matter is that Christianity gives a woman more value than any other religion or philosophy. That's one reason why many of the early Christians were women. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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The ancient Celtic and Mayan civilizations come to mind.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | The truth of the matter is that Christianity gives a woman more value than any other religion or philosophy. |
I think secular and spiritual humanists would like to have a word with you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: |
The truth of the matter is that Christianity gives a woman more value than any other religion or philosophy.
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I hope you're kidding! Have you never met a secular humanist?
| cballard wrote: |
That's one reason why many of the early Christians were women. |
Tell it to Hypatia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia
You shouldn't pat yourself on the back just because Christianity treats women better than Islam. You still have a LONG way to go. Go to Greece or South America and see how Christian women are treated there.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Gabbylittleangel
House Cat
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 173
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: MEN vs. WOMEN |
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| mag_dala55 wrote: | How could God forbid women to speak in the churches in the following?
1 Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Is this not male chauvinism? |
Proving again that Scripture needs to be studied prayerfully, rather than jumping to a preconceived conclusion.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Does that sound like male chauvinism? It sounds like equality to me.
Gabbylittleangel 
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: MEN vs. WOMEN |
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| Gabbylittleangel wrote: |
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Does that sound like male chauvinism? It sounds like equality to me.
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I agree that this example sounds like equality, but for every example of equality in the Bible, there are a bunch of examples of sexism.
If the Bible were truly a supremely balanced book that promotes equality, then women wouldn't have been subjugated under it for the last two thousand years, and the KKK wouldn't have been able to use it to justify themselves when they lynched blacks and burned churches.
I agree that if you open the Bible looking for equality, then you'll be able to find it. I claim, however, that that is not an interesting test. The true test of the Bible's merit with respect to equality is how well it can dissuade racists or sexists from their bigoted beliefs and actions, and unfortunately the Bible hasn't been able to do that very well at all over the centuries.
In terms of equality, the Bible's language isn't NEARLY strong or emphatic enough.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If the Bible were truly a supremely balanced book that promotes equality, then women wouldn't have been subjugated under it for the last two thousand years, and the KKK wouldn't have been able to use it to justify themselves when they lynched blacks and burned churches. |
P, your argument is invalid. You take the folly of mankind and try to place the blame on scripture, pure silliness.
Men (humans) will do what they want with what they have regardless of how balanced, pure, good, whatever, it is or is not. Look at the mess some americans make with the constitution. Look at the consistent fallacies you make in Logic, and we know that logic is pure and unadulterated, but it doesn't keep you from messing it up...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
P, your argument is invalid. You take the folly of mankind and try to place the blame on scripture, pure silliness.
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Yes, but the Bible does not condemn racism or sexism very explicitly or in harsh tones. In fact, there are plenty of verses that can be (mis)interpreted to help justfiy racism and sexim. Mankind is going to be evil, and therefore strong language against racism and sexism is all the more important in the Bible. Unfortunately, it fails to provide this.
| RevJP wrote: |
Men (humans) will do what they want with what they have regardless of how balanced, pure, good, whatever, it is or is not.
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This is only partially true. There are of course people that will do evil no matter what. However, with stronger language condemning racism and sexism, the evil-doers over the centuries would have found it to be considerably harder to justify their evil acts using the Bible.
| RevJP wrote: |
Look at the mess some americans make with the constitution. Look at the consistent fallacies you make in Logic, and we know that logic is pure and unadulterated, but it doesn't keep you from messing it up... |
Good one, RevJP! I'd actually be interested in seeing an example of where I commit a clear logical fallacy.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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How much clearer can He be?
Joh 15:12 This is My commandment: that you love one another [just] as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 No one has greater love [no one has shown stronger affection] than to lay down (give up) his own life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you keep on doing the things which I command you to do.
Luk 6:27 But I say to you who are listening now to Me: [in order to heed, make it a practice to] love your enemies, treat well (do good to, act nobly toward) those who detest you and pursue you with hatred,
Luk 6:28 Invoke blessings upon and pray for the happiness of those who curse you, implore God's blessing (favor) upon those who abuse you [who revile, reproach, disparage, and high-handedly misuse you].
Luk 6:29 To the one who strikes you on the jaw or cheek, offer the other jaw or cheek also; and from him who takes away your outer garment, do not withhold your undergarment as well.
Luk 6:30 Give away to everyone who begs of you [who is in want of necessities], and of him who takes away from you your goods, do not demand or require them back again.
Luk 6:31 And as you would like and desire that men would do to you, do exactly so to them.
Luk 6:32 If you [merely] love those who love you, what quality of credit and thanks is that to you? For even the [very] sinners love their lovers (those who love them).
Luk 6:33 And if you are kind and good and do favors to and benefit those who are kind and good and do favors to and benefit you, what quality of credit and thanks is that to you? For even the preeminently sinful do the same.
Luk 6:34 And if you lend money at interest to those from whom you hope to receive, what quality of credit and thanks is that to you? Even notorious sinners lend money at interest to sinners, so as to recover as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies and be kind and do good [doing favors so that someone derives benefit from them] and lend, expecting and hoping for nothing in return but considering nothing as lost and despairing of no one; and then your recompense (your reward) will be great (rich, strong, intense, and abundant), and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind and charitable and good to the ungrateful and the selfish and wicked.
Luk 6:36 So be merciful (sympathetic, tender, responsive, and compassionate) even as your Father is [all these].
Mat 22:36 Teacher, which kind of commandment is great and important (the principal kind) in the Law? [Some commandments are light--which are heavy?]
Mat 22:37 And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). [Deut. 6:5.]
Mat 22:38 This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. [Lev. 19:18.]
Mat 22:40 These two commandments sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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sandra3102
Kitten
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: MEN vs. WOMEN |
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Gabbylittleangel,
I am glad God revealed the truth to you. I found a wonderful article on the subject regarding MEN vs. WOMEN in the eyes of man. But to God, He does not recognize PHYSICAL gender.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
God is speaking in parables:
Eze 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?
So was Jesus Christ prophesied "dark sayings of old"
Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
True to what is written, this what we read in the gospel of Mark:
Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
This is written about the "spiritual language" of God:
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Therefore who is "man" and who are the "women?"
Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his...
Very clearly revealed, the "man" referred to is GOD! The "women" are the people, both physical male and female.
Therefore God forbids the people, both male and female, or "spiritual women" to speak in the churches. Because of this violation, Christianity is divided into denominations. I read all of these in a wonderful book I happened to buy at Barnes and Noble:
CHRISTIANITY: YESTERDAY AND TODAY
(The Discord Among Christian Sects)
ISBN: 1589612833
| Gabbylittleangel wrote: | | mag_dala55 wrote: | How could God forbid women to speak in the churches in the following?
1 Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Is this not male chauvinism? |
Proving again that Scripture needs to be studied prayerfully, rather than jumping to a preconceived conclusion.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Does that sound like male chauvinism? It sounds like equality to me.
Gabbylittleangel
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. |
_________________
I love to talk about the word of God since I sincerely believe He is being represented thereto. |
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