 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
|
 Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: What if we had done nothing? |
 |
|
September 11, 2001 about 7:15 to 7:30 am (MST), I was making my usual 30 mile trek from home to work. I don't believe I will ever forget that day. That's the day the towers fell. That's the day a handful of brave Americans on a plane stood up to terrorists and terrorism. That's the day that changed America forever.
Our nation went to war shortly thereafter.
We responded to violence with violence.
Jehovah Witnesses do not fight wars. They are conscientious objectors. I am not putting them down for their views. I know that war is a tragic and terrible thing. I know that thousands of young and brave American soldiers have lost their lives as a result of our nations' decision to go to war. But is war avoidable or is it a necessary evil that we have to deal with in this system of things?
What if we had done nothing? What if our nation had turned the other cheek? How would we have fared then? Would the rest of the world have perceived us as peaceful or cowardly? Would we have become a joke or a target of other nations? Would we have been viewed as weak and vulnerable?
Let's take this question down to a personal level:
If your family were victimized by criminals in your home and several of them were tortured and a couple of family members were killed, what would you do? What if you were in the house? What if you were in a position to save your surviving family members but you had to use force to get them out of this situation? Would you help them or would you say 'I'm a conscientious objector?'
Have there always been wars? Were there wars in the OT? Of course there were! Is peace a better option? Yes. Is it realistic in the world we live in to expect peace? No. So what do we do? Do we fight back when we are attacked or do we show the world we are weak and vulnerable by doing nothing?
I believe in peace and I wish there were no wars. But the reality is peace is out of reach in this system of things. It's a shame. It puts many of us in a quandary.
So, again, I pose my orginal question based on our current reality in this world at this time:
What if we had done nothing? Can we afford to do nothing? We know what the cost of fighting back is. What would be the cost of turning the other cheek? Would it be greater than the cost we have paid by becoming embroiled in a seemingly endless war?
Why are Jehovahs Witnesses conscientious objectors? If fighting for our rights and freedoms is the wrong thing to do, why did Gods people do it in the OT?
Luv |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
|
| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
I will remember that day as well. It showed just how quickly things can change in this world. But we have hope. 
Ps 46:9 He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.
The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces;
The wagons he burns in the fire.
As long as man rules himself, wars are an inevitability. God will remedy this though. 
(Jeremiah 10:23) I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
Humans weren't meant to rule ourselves, but because of Satan's challenge God allowed it for a time to prove Satan a liar. The results are clear.
God's kingdom will soon replace human governments and rule over the entire earth.
As long as men rule bad things will happen. True Christians are to be no part of this world. Propaganda may make it seem like the fight is just, but getting involved just makes you a pawn in this system that Satan rules over. 
If one would think the U.S. didn't do things in other countries that would create animosity, that one would be extremely ignorant. 
If one who claims to be Christian, doesn't believe God will effect the real changes that we need on this earth, then they don't understand God's word. If they believe it is up to them to become part of this world to try to make it better politically, then they deny Jesus words.
John 17:16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.
Christian are here to follow Jesus' example, not to effect political change in the nations Satan rules over. Our sole goal here is to preach the good news so people can come out from the hopelessness of this world and have a real hope for a solid future in God's hands. 
In the OT Israel was God's nation, and God told the Israelites to fight to take this land God promised to Abraham. As long as they were faithful, God fought for them or assisted them. Today God's people are throughout the earth and are told to be no part of this world. Today there are no political nations that God works through.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: What if we had done nothing? |
|
|
| luvnlife wrote: | | What if we had done nothing? Can we afford to do nothing? We know what the cost of fighting back is. What would be the cost of turning the other cheek? Would it be greater than the cost we have paid by becoming embroiled in a seemingly endless war? |
Great questions, luvnlife.
As you pointed out, the actions our country has taken in response to terrorist attacks are a less than perfect solution. And if we had taken no action, that also would have been a less than perfect solution.
Religious folks tend to be idealists, see things in black and white, and to believe there is one right course of action in every situation. But what if loving your enemy means abandoning your brother to die by your enemy's hand? And what if loving your brother means hurting your enemy?
It's not a perfect world. It's not a simple black and white existence. Life is complicated. Religious people reassure themselve that if their little set of laws or rules were applied consistently in every situation in life, then life would be ideal. I think one lesson of the gospel is that no set of laws or rules can ever adequately address every possible situation that may arise.
Many are waiting for Jesus to come and fix everything, set up His benevolent yet totalitarian reign and make earth a utopia. Even these are missing the point of God's plan of salvation - to deliver us from sin, not from earthly enemies. And even those such as dispensationalists and the Witnesses who await Jesus coming to personally and bodily reign over our world will tel you that He will only set up his benevolent reign after He has wiped out hundreds of millions of people in a bloody, fiery war.
What sort of perfect solution is that?
| luvnlife wrote: | | But is war avoidable or is it a necessary evil that we have to deal with in this system of things? |
Well, even by Witness and dispensationalist teaching, apparently it is.
I noticed you use the phrase "this system of things". Here is another example of where groups such as the Witnesses and dispensationalists have missed the point of God's plan. The "system of things" that it was God's plan to bring to an end and replace with His heavenly kingdom was not our material world, or our political nations. He was concerned with spiritual things - with man's relationship to Himself. The system of things that separated man from God was the old covenant of sin and the law.
He brought that system to a close and today His kingdom of peace and righteousness reigns. Even in this less than perfect material world.
Now, can believing what I'm talking about bring about a better world? I think so. How much of the conflict in the Middle East is fueled by apocalyptic expectation? Much of it. What would happen if we all understood the real nature and purpose of God's completed plan? That it was to bring us all together as one and reconcile us to Him?
What if we understood to a greater degree that we are not "the righteous vs the wicked" but we are all one? That all men are our brothers?
(editted for spelling) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
|
| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
John 17:13 But now I am coming to you, and I am speaking these things in the world in order that they may have my joy in themselves to the full. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
|
| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | John 17:13 But now I am coming to you, and I am speaking these things in the world in order that they may have my joy in themselves to the full. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
|
Was he talking about the apostles in the verses you quoted above? Did he not tell his apostles that they would face trials and tribulations too?
There are times, places and reasons why sometimes war must be fought. For you to simply say you are not a part of this world does not make it so in the sense that you are implying. You live here too and others fight for your freedom and your right to maintain the lifestyle you have come to enjoy. Our freedoms that we enjoy come at a cost. There are other nations who would like to bring us to our knees. There are others who would like to destroy us. There are also those who would like to rule over us. We have in our midst angels who have given their all to protect us.
How can you stand there and say you are not part of this nation, that you don't appreciate the sacrifices that others have made for us?
How do you justify all the fighting and the wars in the bible? Didn't Gods people fight in the OT? Won't God himself and our savior Jesus fight the final battle? Won't God and his son wage war with the devil himself and his legions of demons?
Luv |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
|
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | Was he talking about the apostles in the verses you quoted above? Did he not tell his apostles that they would face trials and tribulations too?
|
Yes, about his apostles and those who listen to them. Do you listen to them??? All who desire to live with Godly devotion as their aim will be persecuted. Not just the Apostles.
John 17:20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one,
| luvnlife wrote: | | How can you stand there and say you are not part of this nation, that you don't appreciate the sacrifices that others have made for us? |
I appreciate the "freedoms" we currently enjoy in the U.S. That doesn't mean I want to deny Jesus words and become part of the world to show that appreciation. I appreciate Jesus sacrifice and the hope we have for the future much more. These nation won't last, but will be destroyed by God's hand, and God's kingdom will last. Although I live here, my brothers live all over the world. They are "my nation". They are my "we" and "us".
| luvnlife wrote: | | How do you justify all the fighting and the wars in the bible? Didn't Gods people fight in the OT? |
This is where reading past posts helps. 
| luvnlife wrote: | | Won't God himself and our savior Jesus fight the final battle? Won't God and his son wage war with the devil himself and his legions of demons? |
Indeed! So why would you get yourself mixed up in that which is to be destroyed at God's hand????? God and Jesus do the fighting in that war, not "us".
You asked me why JW's believe this way. I explained. If your faith in God and Jesus isn't strong enough to listen to and trust Jesus words, and you feel it is necessary to try to nullify his words (so as to not apply to you) and to become part of this world (actually a pawn of imperfect men) to help secure your "freedoms", that is your call.
My brothers live in nations where they don't enjoy such "freedoms" we currently have here. They are still faithful.
My devotion to God isn't contingent upon the laws of a nation. Don't mistake my dovotion to God and Jesus as a lack of appreciation for the "freedoms" we currently have here. However my devotion to God comes first. My obedience to Jesus comes first. That means I don't become part of this world. How strong is your faith? Does it effect how you live? Does it effect what you will put as first place in your life? Is being a Christian an easy choice? Will those in the world understand what a Christian believes and why?
John 15:19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.
Who are you showing yourself to be? A part of the world or a worshiper of God? Zathrus had made his choice. He made it clear who his "we" and his "us" are. Who are yours? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
|
| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
TBax;
When you question how strong my faith is, you question the faith of Gods beloved children in the OT who indeed did fight in wars and conquered kings of nations and their peoples.
TBax: | Quote: | | This is where reading past posts helps. |
Huh.... I didn't see anything in a previous post on this thread that sufficiently answered the question.
You're part of this nation, you live here and enjoy all the freedoms our fallen brothers and sisters paid a price for yet don't fully appreciate their sacrifices.
I wish wars did not have to be fought. Maybe you should go back and read past posts. Even reading the title of this thread and actually stopping to consider the question might give you pause for thought.....
Let's say everyone in the country became JW's today. Where would we be? What would be the implication for our great country if we were attacked and did absolutely nothing?
What if we all took a stance that we will not vote either? Now we have no government, we are attacked and do nothing and the rest of the world perceives that we are weak and vulnerable.
The only reason JW's CAN take this position is because of others who willingly do stand up for your rights and fight your fights.
Luv |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | | Huh.... I didn't see anything in a previous post on this thread that sufficiently answered the question. |
This is what was said.
| TBax wrote: | | In the OT Israel was God's nation, and God told the Israelites to fight to take this land God promised to Abraham. As long as they were faithful, God fought for them or assisted them. Today God's people are throughout the earth and are told to be no part of this world. Today there are no political nations that God works through. |
Do you do what you are told? You are speaking of a different time when God told his chosen people to fight. God is not telling you to fight in the wars of the nations today. His Son told you to be no part of this world. You can rationalize Jesus words away for yourself, but don't pretend you are speaking with spirit and truth that others should follow your lack of faith and short sightedness.
Prov 3: 5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.
| luvlife wrote: | | Let's say everyone in the country became JW's today. Where would we be? What would be the implication for our great country if we were attacked and did absolutely nothing? |
An interesting question displaying a person with little faith.
| luvnlife wrote: | | The only reason JW's CAN take this position is because of others who willingly do stand up for your rights and fight your fights. |
Is your faith contingent upon whether the government will allow it? My brothers are in every nation and land on this globe. Either you are not reading the responces, or it doesn't belong for you to understand true faith.
My faith isn't contingent upon the human government I am under. My brothers live in nations where they don't enjoy such "freedoms" we currently have here. They are still faithful.
Your post has adequetly answer my questions to you. Namely:
| TBax wrote: | How strong is your faith? Does it effect how you live? Does it effect what you will put as first place in your life?
...
Who are you showing yourself to be? A part of the world or a worshiper of God? Zathrus had made his choice. He made it clear who his "we" and his "us" are. Who are yours? |
Thank you for your reply.  It is now clear where your faith lies. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | | Who are you showing yourself to be? A part of the world or a worshiper of God? Zathrus had made his choice. He made it clear who his "we" and his "us" are. Who are yours? |
I am blessed to serve a God who has love, compassion and mercy on all. And I'm blessed to have His mind - to consider all men my brothers, loved by God and worthy of my loving them. I'm blessd to know not to separate myself from them, to view them as opponents, as "them", and I and my little holier-than-the rest group as "us".
I am truly fortunate also to be in a place where I know that neither I nor anyone else has any place making ultimatums like "You're either with us or against God". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
TBax stated: | Quote: | | Do you do what you are told? You are speaking of a different time when God told his chosen people to fight. God is not telling you to fight in the wars of the nations today. His Son told you to be no part of this world. You can rationalize Jesus words away for yourself, but don't pretend you are speaking with spirit and truth that others should follow your lack of faith and short sightedness. |
Separating ourselves from this world means not exploiting yourself or others for pleasure. It means to abstain from that which hurts us spiritually. It means not to lust after fleshly pleasures.
You are reading the war thing in to this. The cold hard fact is that if our nation is attacked and we do nothing, our children, neighbors, co-workers and friends will suffer.
The bible also tells us it's not our place to judge. As we judge, we will be judged. Jesus is my judge. Not you.
I hate that our country has been put in the position of having to fight this war and other wars in the past. But we have been in that position many times. Is it an eye for an eye or not? Do we have the right and the obligation to defend our friends, neighbors and family or do we fold our arms and watch and do nothing? If someone attacked your family in your home and the only way you could save them was to fight, would you? This is the same thing only on a much grander scale.
BTW, I don't know what religion Zathrus is and I don't care. I recognize him as my brother because I know that the loving compassionate merciful God he has described is the same God I worship.
To state that the church I go to is the only true church or the religion I am studying is the only true religion as you have stated time and again would put me in judgment of all others like you are. We all know, even JW's, that Jesus as king is our judge.
Luv
P.S. (TBax said): | Quote: | | don't pretend you are speaking with spirit and truth |
I don't need to pretend. I am speaking with the spirit of truth using Gods word as my guide. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | | I am truly fortunate also to be in a place where I know that neither I nor anyone else has any place making ultimatums like "You're either with us or against God". |
Indeed, you truly are in that place! Too bad it isn't the same place Jesus is.
Matt 12:30 He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
People who believe and teach thing contrary to what Jesus said are against him. If you are against Jesus do you suppose you are also against God as well???
Last edited by TBax on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:53 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
luvnlife,
| luvnlife wrote: | Separating ourselves from this world means not exploiting yourself or others for pleasure. It means to abstain from that which hurts us spiritually. It means not to lust after fleshly pleasures.
You are reading the war thing in to this. |
It doesn't mean keeping ourselves seperate from organizations that Satan controls as well? Is going to kill others, sometime perhaps even your spiritual brothers, because some men told you to, spiritually harmful?
Acts 5: 29 In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.
| luvnlife wrote: | | If someone attacked your family in your home and the only way you could save them was to fight, would you? |
Self defence and getting involved in wordly affairs (a.k.a. killing others because someone told you to) are two totally seperate things. If a man handed you a gun and said you need to kill someone because they are threatening your family, I assume you would do it, correct? You have demonstrated you allow others to control your actions in place of what God's Son told you.
| luvnlife wrote: | | Is it an eye for an eye or not? Do we have the right and the obligation to defend our friends, neighbors and family or do we fold our arms and watch and do nothing? |
When the Romans were attacking my brothers in the first century, exacuting them and putting them on display in the colosseums, did the remaining brothers fight???
Christaians are not to blindly follow the nations they happen to live in. The nations have a right to defend themselves against their percieved threats. However it is not a Christians position to determine if it is justifiable. If you trust in God, your faith will show it in how you conduct yourself under test. Where do you turn under test? Is your confidence in God or men when put under test? Your answers show your position. The nations are ruled by Satan. If Satan manuvers things to indicate you should fight will you become a pawn of Satan's? You indicate YES.
This world is passing away, including human governments. If you want to get caught up in political battles in place of what you should be doing, keeping seperate from the world and teaching others about God's kingdom, that is your decision. To act as though your decision should be everone else's decision is saying everone should obey your faithless, valueless words.
| luvnlife wrote: | | We all know, even JW's, that Jesus as king is our judge. |
The difference is, JW's don't just claim Jesus is our king, we actually listen to and trust him. Why don't you?
| luvnlife wrote: | | I don't need to pretend. I am speaking with the spirit of truth using Gods word as my guide. |
If rationalizing away Jesus words is spirit and truth then you would be correct.
| luvnlife wrote: | | The bible also tells us it's not our place to judge. As we judge, we will be judged. Jesus is my judge. Not you. |
Even though your words indicate a lack of faith, it is not my purpose to judge, but to warn you that you are drifting along with the crowd. Now is the time to make necessary changes, before Jesus does judge.
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | Indeed, you truly are in that place! Too bad it isn't the same place Jesus is.
Matt 12:30 He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
People who believe and teach thing contrary to what Jesus said are against him. If you are against Jesus do you suppose you are also against God as well??? |
The stock answer from anyone in an exclusivist religous group which is convinced they have a monopoly on God's truth and on salvation.
To others reading: Jesus was "for" people. Common, everyday people. People who weren't Bible scholars. People who didn't have all their doctrine right. He loves people. All of them. He didn't ask if they believed the right things before healing them. He didn't give His disciples a doctrinal questionaire before calling them to follow Him. And He did not require them to join any specific organization before He called them to follow Him, nor did He expect them to join a fringe apocalyptic group before considering their faith in Him valid.
He is not "for" just one small exclusivist fringe apocalyptic sect who because of its peculiar misapplications of scripture lays claim to being the only Way and only ones saved.
| TBax wrote: | | Self defence and getting involved in wordly affairs (a.k.a. killing others because someone told you to) are two totally seperate things. |
Brother Bax, the way you skirted around luv's point that war can be (and in this case is) self-defense on a larger scale and shifted the argument to suit your Witness teaching did not go unnoticed. The Witnesses will not address the issue here because it is one of those situations in life that is too complicated for pat answers, for a series of rules and laws to address. And the Witnesses cannot accept that.
| TBax wrote: | | It doesn't mean keeping ourselves seperate from organizations that Satan controls as well? |
| TBax wrote: | | The nations are ruled by Satan. If Satan manuvers things to indicate you should fight will you become a pawn of Satan's? |
It is interesting how prominently Satan figures into the world view and the theology of apocalyptic religious groups like the Witnesses and the Adventists. They view Satan as extremely powerful, in control of the entire world - focusing all his attacks on their religious organization, even from within it. This is to instill fear in members of anything that may lead them away from the organization, or even open their minds, since that would also expose the organization for what it is.
People in apocalyptic organizations are the most fearful people I have known. Satan would seem to be waiting around every corner, to pounce on and attack the poor weak little Christian. Don't worry TBax, I know the misapplied scriptures that you use to justify instilling this fear in adherents.
Love does not have fear. Fear has to do with torment - with punishment.
It is ironic that for all they think they know better than the rest of us, groups like the Witnesses and the Adventists have completely failed to do their homework on the subject of Satan, the one they fear and regard as so powerful. Instead, they hold to a traditional teaching concerning the devil, handed down from the very church organization they consider to be the Mother of Harlots prophesied in Revelation.
| TBax wrote: | | When the Romans were attacking my brothers in the first century, exacuting them and putting them on display in the colosseums, did the remaining brothers fight??? |
This brings up an interesting point. TBax, is there any historical evidence that suggests that Christians in the first or second century who were drafted to join the military in the country in which he lived refused?
Last edited by Zathrus on Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | | I know that neither I nor anyone else has any place making ultimatums like "You're either with us or against God". |
Jesus words proved you wrong, yet you forge ahead ignoring your obvious mistake.
Zathrus' flowery view isn't quite accurate. Notice all thing aren't flowers and lollipops.
John 3:36 He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
The Bible shows God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth. Zathrus says no.
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax, is there any historical evidence that suggests that Christians in the first or second century who were drafted to join the military in the country in which he lived refused? |
If there is, would you then believe? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | I know that neither I nor anyone else has any place making ultimatums like "You're either with us or against God". |
Jesus words proved you wrong, yet you forge ahead ignoring your obvious mistake. |
More misapplication of Biblical texts to instill fear and loyalty in adherents to apocalyptic religous groups.
TBax, Jesus' statement in was made reference to an accusation that He cast out devils by the power of Beelzebub. This accusation was made by exclusivist religious people who thought if Jesus wasn't part of their organization, He was in league with the devil.
Luke 11
| Quote: | 19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. |
Jesus merely argued that He had to be casting out demons by the power of God since Satan does not fight against Satan. And if it was true that He was operating in the power of God and they opposed Him, then they opposed God.
This is not a claim that the Witnesses can make since neither their teaching nor their heart reflects the nature or truth of God. They cannot claim that any who are not with them are against God.
The Witnesses find themselves in the same position as the religious rulers who accused Jesus. They are exclusivist, and convinced that anyone calling on the name of the Lord or working by His power, but not part of their organization is in league with the devil.
Notice how the Witnesses have taken only verse 23, pulled it out of the context of the situation it was said in and what Jesus actually meant by it, assigned a meaning to it completely opposite of what the Lord meant when He said it, and used it as a slogan to instill fear and loyalty in their adherents while judging everyone else.
Jesus also said this:
Luke 9
| Quote: | 49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. |
Here the disciples found themselves in the same position the Witnesses are in today and Jesus corrected them. The man believed in Jesus, and did his deeds in Jesus' name, but was not part of their "organization". This did not bother Jesus. It was the man's heart that Jesus was concerned with, not his allegiance to any religious group.
| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus' flowery view isn't quite accurate. Notice all thing aren't flowers and lollipops. |
TBax, notice that the fact that all things aren't flowers and lollipops is precisely the point of my "flowery view".
| TBax wrote: | | If there is, would you then believe? |
You are still avoiding this issue and that is not going unnoticed. Address the issue of self-defense which luvnlife brought up.
TBax, Witness teaching has not benefitted you. It has misled you and closed your mind. The Witness practice of quoting verses out of context, misapplying them and distorting their meaning has only led you away from the truth.
Open your heart to the gospel - to God's love and mercy. Embrace your brothers from all walks of faith, all who call Jesus Lord. He who is not against Christ is for Him, and has part in His heavenly kingdom. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
