Differences in Interpretations........?

Nobby

_________________Differences in Interpretations
___________ This is a "One-on-One" debate between:

___________________Heinsenburg & Golfjack

Check the rules & have fun. Very Happy

Nobby

golfjack · Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject: reply

Thanks Nobby, Heisenburg why don't you pick out a Chapter or verse, or topic, and give me your interpretation. If you want, you can use commentaries if you wish. This will be interesting.

May God bless, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Thanks Nobby...

Well, I am unsure of all the areas our interpretation differs, but, I know you said you have issues with Peter being offered the role as Pope. So I guess we can go with that to start with.

For Starters, I do not believe in single verses as quotes as it can easily be misleading, I look at overall chapters. and parables, not just the surronding few sentences...

In Mat 16, Christ Asks his disciples who the people think he is. Some say John the Baptist, others say Elija (sp). He then turns to the descipels and asks who do you say that I am. Peter responds that he is the Christ.

Jesus then tells Peter, flesh has not told you this but The heavenly father.

Now we get to the debated verse...

Then, Jesus renames Him Peter, which literaly means rock. and says upon this rock I will build my church. That which you hold in on earth, i hold in heaven, that which you let loose on earth I let loose in heaven.

If you said peter to someone of jesus's day, you would know it meant Rock, So, you can literal read it, I say to you, you are Rock and upon this Rock I build my church.

Points to be made, Jesus said that Peter is to be the foundation of a new church (Guided by christ of coarse). This is furhtered that he is given this authority by the next statement where Jesus says what you hold I hold, what you let loose I let loose. This is an EXTREMELY powerful command given to Peter. Basicly, Jesus just told Peter, What ever you say here on earth, I will agree with it. Understand this does NOT mean Peter has Authority over Jesus. Only that Jesus Will Support Peters decisions before God. Jesus trusts Peter THAT much to make this blanket statement.

Some aspects to consider when debating whether or not Peter was incharage after The Assention...

Peter is mentioned more than ANY other Disciple through out the Bible
In Acts, when they were having their debate over whether or not Circumcisions were required, it Was Peter that stood up as the authoritative leader in the meeting.
Even though Paul disagreed with some of the things Peter was saying, he still submitted his will to Christ through Peter.

There is also evidence of the disciples being organized into "offices". Recall one of the dicsiples asked whether or not to fill the office held by Judas. This brings out two issues. if Apostolic Succession is Valid, there it is shown that it is. and 2) was there an organization to the church he founded, yes, this also shows it because someone needed to fill the office left vacant by Judas...

THis is how I view it, This is what makes sense to me. When I debated it and asked god if this was true as I wondered about it myself, it just happened that the gospel in mass happened to be about this very thing. So it was literaly like this fri - God, did you realy set up the Catholic Church? sat - did some research... hmm, i guess maybe Sun - This sunday I want to talk about Peter...

I do want to say this. I understand you have your understanding. it is not my intention to change the way you see this issue. I mearly wish that you (and more specificly those reading this) will Understand why it is seen as such

In Christ
J
_________________
If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:05 am Post subject: reply

Good morning Heisenburg. Yes, it is a good to cross reference and not take scriptures out of context. Well, let's get started. I will give you my interpretation of Matt. 16:18-20.

Let's examine PETER, ROCK, AND CHURCH. In these words Christ promises to build his church on the truth of Peter's and the other disciples confession that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God (Matt. 16; Acts 2:14-26). Jesuus uses a play on words here. He calls his disciple Peter (Gk petros, meaning a small stone), but goes on to say, on this rock (Gk Petra, meaning a massive rock or rocky cliff) I will build my church, he will build his church on Peter's solid confession.

1. It is Jesus Christ who is the Rock, the first and great foundation of the church (1 Co. 3:11). Peter states in his first letter that Jesus is the living stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone, the stone the builders rejected (1 Peter 2:4, 6-7). At the same time, Peter and all other Christians are living stones who become part of the structure of the spiritual house that God is building (1 Peter 2:5).

2. Nowhere in Scripture is it stated that Peter would be the supreme and infallible authority above all other disciples (Ac 15; Gal 2:11). Nor does it say that Peter should have infallible sucessors who would represent Christ and function as the official head of the church.

Matt. 16:18 THE GATES OF HADES WILL NOT OVERCOME IT. The gates of hades represent all the demons and evil strategy that Satan can marshal in an attempt to destroy the church or to withstand its mission in the world. This passage does not mean that any particular believer, local Church, fellowship of churches, or denomination will never fall away in doctrinal error or otherwise be overcome by sin or satans snares. Jesus himself warned believers and churches of possible spiritual deception and failure (Matt. 24:10-111; Rev. 2:5, 12-29; 3:1-6, 14-16; 1 Ti 4:1). What this passage does mean is that in spite of Satan doing his worst, the church that Jesus Christ is building cannot, in the end, be overcome by Satan. God's true church will rise up in faith, authority and the power of the Holy Spirit to righteously assault Satan's kingdom and domain of darkness by delivering people from sin, disease, and bondage and oppression. The church that Jesus is building can never be destroyed nor successfully be resisted by Satan (verse 19).

KEYS OF THE KINGDOM. God's kingdom is to entered (Matt. 7:21); the keys represent authority for entry. The keys are also related to the binding and loosing (verse 19). Jesus, to whom the Father gave all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18), delagated his authority (represented by the keys to Peter and the church for carrying out the Great Commission. This authority for proclaimingg the gospel includes his delegated authority to bind and to loose on earth. The complex Greek construction behind will be bound and will be loosed points to the complete adequacy of Jesus death on the cross (Col 2:13-15).The binding and loosing is an already accomplished provision because Jesus' finished work on the cross that is now released on earth through the church to those who will believe in Christ unto salvation.

I hope this post explains my position. Feel free to pick it apart, and we can go on in this discussion.

May God bless, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Hee hee typed out a nice long reply and i lost connection (through no fault of Bible-discussion.com) ao, let me try again...

Counter-points

1) Peter the Rock - When looking at the language you also have to look at the tense. Petra is female, Petros is male. both mean rock. just differant in tense. It would make no sense to call Simon by a female name. It also makes no sense to call Jesus by a females name. So these are simply tenses being used to name someone, but the underlying statement is that Peter, you are the rock. Also, it logicly doesnt make sense to rename Peter little rock if it isnt to be important in the grand scheme of the Gosples. If this was true, he should have named all his appostles little rock. Instead he give peter alone this distinction. God only renames those of super high importance. he never renames bit players. If the little rock is to be assumed then God renamed what would then amount to a bit player. Also, logicly the sentance no longer makes sense. It would then say, you are a pebble, and I am going to build my church on a boulder. Sounds more like an insult than a compliment. this also causes the rest of the versus following not to make sense either. The only way it does make sense is to say Peter you are a great rock, and upon this great rock, I am going to build my church.

1st Peter is ok as well because ultimatly, Christ is the true foundation.

2) Keys/Authority/infalibility - First, think about this, WE are told to first, before everyhting else, to seek ye first for the kingdom of heaven. Every Christian agrees with this statement. So, if you are supposed to seek the kingdom, who are you to go to, the person with the keys right? Christ explicitly says i give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. THis is a very simple statement that has been way over thought. If i said, im leaving you the keys to my house while i gone, you would know that I'm leaving you in charge, don't wreck the place. The same is true here. He tells peter, hey, you got the keys till i get back, dont wreck the place. He didnt give everyone the keys, just peter. This is the only place in the world that when someone is told that they have the keys, that theologians want to say thats not what he meant. If it wasnt in refrence to this subject, it would be accepted as saying Peter, your in charge.

Infailibilty - First, infailibiity is not meant that everything that the church/pope says is infallible. only when it is declared to be infallible. This has only been done i think 3 times in the past 150 years. and it is only with respect to teachings of christ. Now you have a history of 2000 years, so this accumulates to alot of infallible teachings. and it is normally on very conservative issues. In regards to Peter, this is said in the same verse "that which you hold on earth..." What ever you hold true, so do. It's a pretty simple statement if you ask me. Pretty clear that what ever Peter says goes is what it means. Again, it was directed at Peter, not everyone.

Authority- There are PLENTY of examples of Peters authority over everyone else. Even if you do not agree in apostolic succesion, It is clear Peter was in charge of the early church..

Examples...

John 21 - Jesus puts Peter in charge of his flock

Acts 1:13-26 - Peter was in charge of a meeting to replace the office held by Judas

Acts Chapter 2 - Peter Led the appostles at pentecost

Acts 3 - Peter is the first to perform miracles

Acts 15 - Peter was in charge of the meeting on whether or not to allow gentiles

Gal 1 - Paul goes to see Peter, the chief appostle.

Like I said, even if you do not agree that this office continues after Peter, It is obvious Peter was in charge at the time.

Lastly, keep this in mind, from the earliest christians on, Peter has been looked at as the leader of the church, only in the 16th/17th century did this division show up...

Even those that would have been taught by the appostles write of the authority of Peter...

(This is fun... Very good post by the way)

With Respect

J
_________________
If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: reply

I agree that this is much fun. Whether Petra is female or not is a mute point. Christ has build His Church on a massive Rock, which includes ALL BELIEVERS, both females, males, little children, old people. You see, the Body of Christ are living stones who become part of structure of the spiritual house that God is building. I repeat, show me where scripture where it says that Peter would be the supreme and infallible authority above all other disciples (Acts. 15; Gal 2:11)? In my opinion, most Catholics only believe what they see in the natural, and don't understand much about spiritual things. How do you understand the parable of the Seed in Mark 4? Galatians 2:7 says that Peter was the Apostle of the Jews, and Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles, after all, he established Gentle churches in his journeys. Now read Gal. 2:6, which says God doesn't show favoritism to any person because of his or her heritage, reputation, position or accomplishment (Lev. 19:15; Dt. 10:17; Job 34:19; Acts 10:34; Ephesians 6:9). You see, God sees and evaluates the heart, the inner person, and his favor rests on those whose hearts are sincerely turned toward him in love, faith and purity. Thus God does not prefer the love, fellowship and prayers of the educated more than uneducated, the rich more than the poor, or the powerful more than the weak; God's eternal principle is that he accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right (Acts 10:35).

To me, the Bishops and cardinals are very arrogant with all their piety. I was astonished to see people at the Vatican, when Pope John died, treat Him like he was a God. A nun on EWTN said one should become a Jew, before he is Catholic. In no way, am I saying you are this way, but it becomes obvious that these Higher ups think they are big shots. When it comes to salvation, the issue is the condition of one's heart or spirit that has to be born again.

A little later, I will try my best to post what the Church means. Maybe, this will help you see where I am coming from. Did you know that there was no church established yet in the Gospels. It really started with the book of Acts, and Epistles.

Have a great day in the Lord, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

I must make this response quick as I am heading out the door, but wanted to make a few points...

First... At this point, I am only referring to Peter...

While I understand your logic for your understanding of Peter the Rock, this to me is the place in scripture where Peter is given the Authority. If you read it straight forward without trying to make a play on the words, it says this...

Simon, your name is now Peter, which means Rock. Upon this Rock I will build my Church. I trust you so I am going to give you the keys to the place, so anything you say goes.

In regards to the Mustard seed. i think it is perfectly defined in the church. When it was young it looked small and weak. As it grew, it changed and become more beautiful. This also applies to the personal level of faith.

In refrence to Peter/jews Paul/Gentiles. At that point, it no longer mattered. They were both Christian so this differance is not to important. But as i mentioned before, there are plenty of places where Peter was shown as the Head. also, the apostles went out and formed churches as well, are these any less important because they were formed by "Jewish Apostles"? They both ministered to gentiles and jews alike.

While I will agree, there are some bishops and cardinals that come off as arrogant, you cannot fault a church by the sins of some of its members. There is a catholic saying that goes something like the streets of hell are paved with the skulls of Bishops and Popes. We acknowledge there are faulty priests, but this does not mean all are. And this does not mean the teachings are bad. Arrogance can easily take hold in anyone. But Not everyone.

In refrence to god showing favortism. You refrence Leviticus, keep in mind, who are the Levitical Priest. These are the sons of Arron because he showed favor upon Arron. God will show favortism and does frequently in the bible when it suits him. However, I completely agree that ones position doesn't matter. Even the pope will say that when it comes to his own person, he is no more important than the smallest human when it comes to God. However, he understands that since he is in a position of authority he must use it wisly. Thus, he does what he can to teach what is shown to him through the bible based on the Holy Spirit. Catholics do not follow the pope because he is a man, they follow him becuase he is truely guided by the Holy Spirit. Thus, they are following Christ.

In regards to scripture as a whole, there is a key differance between the way catholics see the bible, and noncatholics see the bible. Catholics as a whole go by the logic come to christ as a child. We are told that is what we must do. So, when we approach the bible we try and read it as such. Noncatholics have a tendancy to try and find some deeper hidden meaning in what is there, like big rock, little rock. You are right, female/male is mute, so is little rock big rock.

If a child read that verse, with zero knowledge of the gramatics behind it, and with zero input from either catholic or non catholic, how would a child see it...

With a childs eyes, read this, and with a child like understanding, not an educated understanding, and regardless of everything you have been told before... what does this verse say...

all you know is Peter has something to do with rock..

NIV
Mat 16:18-19
18)And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19)I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

To me, with a childs eyes, this is what the spirit says it means to me

Simon, I am going to rename you a rock, and upon this rock, i am going to build my church, You are in charge, what ever you say goes.

My Gracious friend, I leave you with the last word...

Then, if you wish to continue, you get to start the next one.

Peace to you in Christ always
J
_________________
If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: reply

Hi Buddy, It all comes down to forgiveness of sins. Who forgives: Jesus Christ. Does a priest have a right to forgive or retain one's sins? I believe that Jesus Christ is our one and only Savior, and most certainly not a priest. This is how bad it can get: A woman who had an abortion went to confess this sin to a priest, and he told her to go to the Bishop. Do you really think this is right? You see, Jesus Christ on the cross said it is finished, and after He rose again, he went to sit at the right hand of the Father. This is why Protestants display an empty cross in their churches. As brought up a Catholic, I always lived in condemnation because they said if I commited Mortal Sin, I would go to hell. Confessions are held usually on Saturday's, and if one commits Mortal sin on Monday and dies on Tuesday, He's done.

I believe we should have a discussion about the New Birth (Born again experience). Why don't I name it BORN AGAIN INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD.

It's not important what church you are in. The important thing is What family are you in. The key which unlocks all the promises of God is this, Jesus taught that a man must be born again. The following statements came from the lips of Jesus: (John 3:3; 3-5; Matt. 18:3; and Luke 13:3, 5). The New Birth is anecessity to being saved. Through the New Birth you come into the right relatioship to God. The New Birth is necessary before you can claim any of the benefits of the Bible.

There is much more, but I will wait for your input on this topic. I want to let you know that I consider you a Brother in Christ, and won't bash you like some do.

May God bless, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Like Wise my friend Smile

I think we will find we are very close in agreement on this matter.

In my opinion, Jesus's Conversations with Nicademius (sp) sums it up Perfectly.

We must be born again of Water ond of the spirit that we might obtain salvation.

the baptisim physcially prepares our soul, but it is when we finally accept Him into our lives that we are truely born again. Baptism is only the first step. Furthermore, we should not be able to know the day and hour we are born of the spirit. This is like asking a married couple when they fell in love. the best they can do is tell you when they realized it. I thought for the longest time i was born again, then I realy begain to study and learn what it meant to be christian. I never thought i would WANT to spread the word, now i desire to do nothing else.

If there is any area we may differ, it will be on whether or not we can loose salvation. my belief is yes. Once we are born of the spirit, that is not where it ends, but that is where the real work begins. Jesus said that the branch that does not produce fruit will be cut from the tree. He also says there will be many that will be excited for him early, but then loose that luster and thus fall away. WE can loose this gift, and thus we must continue to work through our salvation in the spirit with kindness and charity. We must never stop studying christ. To do otherwise will cause us Jesus to cut us from the tree. No one can tell you you are saved. And we have no garuntee of this until God himself judges us worthy to enter the kingdom. At best we can say i feel i may be, but leave that judgement up to god.

In Christ
J
_________________
If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:27 pm Post subject: reply

It really delights my heart to see you like to spread the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ. As you can probably tell by now, I have been trained to be an evangelist. Do you believe that Water Baptism saves one (adult or child)? It really has nothing to do with saving anyone. The water mentioned in John is the Word of God. Here are some scriptures that back this statement up: Eph. 5:26; John 6:63; John 15:3; John 17:17; ! Peter 1:23; and James 1:18. What these passages tell me is that a sinner must conform to the Word of God, and nothing else. I think it might help to understand the nature of man. Man is not a physical being. Man is a spirit. In fact, man is a spirit, who possesses a soul, and lives in a body (1 Thess. 5:23). The soul is man's intellect, emotions, and will. And the soul in turn operates through the physical body. At physical death, the spirit and his soul leave the physical body and go to their eternal home.

Once saved, always saved is always a hot button issue for a Christian. I do believe in Eternal security, but had to change my position on if one can lose their salvation. I base this on Hebrews 6:4-12 and other verses. If one does lose their salvation, they can't get it back. This is what I believe: first of all, as long as one is striving for spiritual growth, they have nothing to worry about. Secondly, I believe only a real mature Christion can lose it, but I don't know that many mature Chrsitians. Thirdly, To lose one's salvation, it must an act that verbally rejects Christ, and makes Satan his god. Having said that, one who habitially sins, puts theirselves in danger to reject Christ. I remember in grade school, a nun told the class if you get a divorce, that sin will never be forgiven, which to me is a ridiculous statement.

Have to eat supper right now.

May God bless, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Good Morning Golf

Wow, that's a pretty strict nun. Im glad that doesnt represent the Catholic Church's view. Wink

Really quick statement on the issue of forgiveness of sins. You do not have to ask forgiveness by a priest for every sin. Also, every sin per the Church is forgivible. If I wrongly snubbed someone today, I can ask for forgiveness to God alone tonight and be forgiven. However, if you a regular to confession, it keeps you a little "cleaner" because you will start mentioning all your sins. It makes you accountible in a more unique way... but that is not the subject for this portion Smile

Anyway,
I Do believe baptism is a requirement. But there are three types of baptism.

Water Baptism - Everyone knows what this is.

Baptism by Desire - If you are in a situation where it is unavailible to you for what ever reason, but you would if you were given the opportunity.

Baptism By Blood - Simply stated, Desire + Martyrdom. An early christian that died at the hands of the romans, but was never baptised by water is one that was baptised by blood.

You are right in saying though that it is not the baptism that ultimatly matters. Baptism prepares the soul and readies it for christ, but it isnt the final arbiture of your salvation.

In Christ
J
_________________
If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: reply

Hi my friend, where in the Bible does it talk about Baptism of desire, and Baptism by blood. Was the thief on the cross water baptized? Is this what the Catecism says?

The New Birth does not take place gradually. It is instantaneous! It is a gift of God received the moment we believe. In Ephesions 2:1 it says that you who were dead in trespasses and sins (spiritual death), He has quickened, made alive and verses 8 and 9 tell you how it came about. Not of works. That punctures the ballon of the ego. Man wants to do something to save himself. He wants to have a part in it. But he can't. You have to simply admit your helplessness. You have to admit that you are just what the Bible says (a lost sinner). Then you come and accept what Christ has wrought for you (a gift). Have you passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life? Is God your Father? Can you look up to heaven and say, Father God? Is His Spirit within your spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God? Do you have the Holy Spirit in your spirit crying Abba, Father? you do if you are born again.

One of the biggest problems I have with the Catholic Church is that it thinks that salvation be had by good works or do good works to maintain their salvation. Of course, after we are saved, we should do good things for people, but it doesn't maintain our salvation. As far as sinning goes, I believe a believe should think on God and not have a sin conscience. When one has a sin conscience, he probably will sin. We do have an advacate in Jesus Christ, and when we miss it, we can use 1 John 1:9. I will give you a challenge Hesinburg. Show me in the New Testament, where a BELIEVER is called a sinner. I know you must think that I have a license to sin, but I say I don't need a license because I probably sin enough. You see, the Word of God is to be studied and mediated on to have that Word work through us so that we become better Christians.

I am always very frank and give my biblical proof for things that I believe. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, of things not seen.

May God bless you my friend, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Good Morning Golf...

In regards to the three types of baptism, I have heard this from catholics and noncatholics alike. It is mearly a way to take into account those like the theif on the cross... baptism by desire, and those that were martyred before being baptised, baptised by blood. It is mearly a way to say that while baptisim by water is prefered, it is not the soul way to be baptised. Make sense? No it is not directly in the bible, but the thief is a perfect example of baptism by desire...

The Catholic church DOES NOT teach that you must do works to get into heaven. this is false all the way around, what it does say is that we must live the life christ instructs of us. Works mean alot of things. Being able to forgive, being patient, helping the poor, following the commandments. james says faith without works is dead. Jesus says Why do you call em lord lord and not do what I tell you. The parable of the seed where those will be gracious and excited for christ early on, but then loose that faith and fall away. What the church tried to teach is not to become the seed that falls on bad soil. To continue to follow christ after we have accepted him. There is only one place where it says we are saved by faith alone. It is in James chpt 2. it says where are NOT saved by faith alone.

The holy spirit will give us the desire, but we still have the free will to refuse it. What happens then if we refuse the desire to do what christ asks of us.

I freely admit one thing, and therefore sense it is my own understanding, will leave it at that. Accepting jesus is a gradual thing that happens deep in our heart, it is not a suddenly you know, im going to acceot jesus today and poof it happens, it grows in us, like the seed until one day it produces fruit.

My Friend, You say nowhere is a believer called a sinner? Maybe not directly, but what of Peter. his most trusted disciple, yet at the scurge of the pillar, he denies him three times. peter bared false witness. He sinned. Believers will sin. I admit I sin, to say we are no longer sinners is very antibiblical. we are NOT like christ yet. we are working to become like christ. every cuse word, every time you lie, even white lies, everytime you get angery on the road, every time you get angrey here, there are many instances where we all sin. to say once we become a believer we are free of sin is false. What we are is free from the PUNISHMENT of sin. this is a huge differance. We are simply now in a state where we can freely ask of the forgiveness. Show me a single person in history (other than jesus) that upon receiving christ did NOT sin, and I will conceed to OSAS. Even Moses Sinned...

I need jesus to forgive my sins, this does not change once i believe in him.

I Am a sinner, but I am a sinner that knows christ will forgive me of my sins. I must simply ask for his forgiveness...

One last thing. A great way to sum up how catholics see works/faith is as follows.

"I am saved by my Faith in christ, and I Glorify him with my works."

Dispite our disagreements, My respect for you and your faith though exudes...

One more round on this each and you amy pick the next topic if you want Smile

The Peace of Christ be with you Always
J
_________________
If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:03 am Post subject: reply

Good morning my friend. You are the first Catholic that I have met who really is trying to allow the Holy Spirit to speak your spirit, and a desire to love and obey Jesus Christ.

In the Pauline Epistles, have you noticed what is says about the believer? Probably about 200 times it says (in Christ, By Christ, through Christ, etc). It says we are complete in Christ, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, Spiritually speaking, we are seated in heavenly places with Christ, and we are new Creatures in Christ Jesus. You see in God's eyes, this is how he sees us. you haven't told me if you believe that we are a spirit, coomposed of a soul, that has a body covering. Maybe, this is our confusion about understanding of who we are in Christ. You see, our spirits are perfect, and God cannot live in us without being Born Again, and all that sin has been completely cleansed from our old nature. We have a new nature in us. God is Holy and just can't live in that old nature because God abhors sin. Faith is an action word, and is a gift from God, but it is up to us to activate that faith, which is called the measure of faith. Then the Bible says that our faith can grow eccedingly. By saving us, God is going to do all he is going to do as far as inward man goes. You see, the battlefield is in the Mind of man, and this is our soulish area. Therefore by the process of sanctification, we can grow from glory to glory. Once we try our best to line up our souls to our spirits, then the flesh will line up too, but it will never be perfect until we go to the judgement seat of Christ, which is for believers (rewards judgement). Many I suppose will receive very few rewards and their works will be burned up. But they will enter into heaven by the skin of their teeth or something like that.

Peter by the way, when he denied Christ 3 times wasn't even saved yet. The apostles and others were saved right before pentacoast, when Christ breathed in them a new spirit.

I hope I am explaing my position well. Feel free to ask me questions.

May God bless, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Greetings Good Friend

I believe you will find there are more catholics out there like me than many people think. Sadly, catholics are often portrayed as midless drones jsut doing things because they are told to. What makes it worse, there are a large number of catholics that are like this. They are called cradle catholics. they grew up doing this and that but never realy understanding why the church does what it does. Almost every catholic goes through this. Normaly there are three results. The first, and most common, they either go to a denomonation that makes them "feel" better. If they are then lit on fire for the the word of god, thenthis may not necisarily be a bad thing. The other option is they leave church all together. Lastly, you get to the type of catholic that is tired of jsut going through the motions. they go, alright what is it that the church ACTUALLY teaches. almsot always, they find the church truely can be a church you can be on fire for. That once you understand why the chrurch does what it does, you realize, everyhitng the church does is for the glory and honor of jesus christ. What makes it funny is, while many people complain about the "rules", what ends up happening is those apparent rules actually make it easier for me to have a personal relationship with christ. I am not saying nocatholic churches dont have that same fire, its jsut that with catholcis, you jsut need to dig a little.

Many true catholics feel that the biggest threat to the church isnt protestantism, but apathy within the church. Our own catholic brothers and sisters that never seek to learn what the church teaches are normally our biggest enemy.

I am by no means applying this to you as you were a former catholic, but this is an in general statemnet.

The Short of it is this. Once a catholic actually studies what the church is saying, we stand up hand in hand and jsut as strong in our faith for the lord jesus christ with our Protestant Evangelist Brothers and Sisters...

Anyway --- Sorry about that

Back to the points in question. I our definitions of Faith are throwing us.

what you are calling faith and what is your definition it seems to me says Faith + works

What you think of when I say Faith + works, to me means Faith + Works + Self glorifying actions

Faith+Works+Glory is NOT gods way The Catholic church will agree with the Noncatholic churches on this any day

In regards to soul/body -

One and the same after the our resurection...

before the our resurection, the body is merely a host

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My question to you if you would b so kind...

One of my biggest confusion points with protestant churches is the varying directiosn differant churches/people take.

How can the holy spirit lead two differant people in two completly oppoite ways

Example:

One person will say the holy spirit says divorce is ok
Another will say divorce is bad...

They cannot both be right, how is this resolved in scripture

In Christ
J
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If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour