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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: Do Atheist Love? A Few Questions |
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1) Can anyone here prove that Love is logical?
2) Do Atheist Love others? If so please explain why, inside the framework of a mechanistic universe, sound logic and in at-will "testable" terms. That is to say, you are free to use the same technique whereby you conclude that there is no God to explain what Love is, if Love in fact exists at all.
3) If you can prove that Love exists then can you expound on weather or not Love is a virus threatening the evolution of the planet? Why and what should be done to eradicate Love?
Thank you
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | 1) Can anyone here prove that Love is logical? |
Unlikely, unless one goes with the chemical reactions behind it.
| Colter wrote: | | 2) Do Atheist Love others? If so please explain why, inside the framework of a mechanistic universe, sound logic and in at-will "testable" terms. That is to say, you are free to use the same technique whereby you conclude that there is no God to explain what Love is, if Love in fact exists at all. |
If one wants to get extremely technical, love can be seen as the product of hormones and other reactions within individuals.
| Colter wrote: | | 3) If you can prove that Love exists then can you expound on weather or not Love is a virus threatening the evolution of the planet? Why and what should be done to eradicate Love? |
 Virus???
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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FFT,
Are you an Atheist?
| Quote: | 2) Do Atheist Love others? If so please explain why, inside the framework of a mechanistic universe, sound logic and in at-will "testable" terms. That is to say, you are free to use the same technique whereby you conclude that there is no God to explain what Love is, if Love in fact exists at all.
If one wants to get extremely technical, love can be seen as the product of hormones and other reactions within individuals. |
Outside of sexual attraction are there provable chemical reactions of mind that would always react the same way in a laboratory setting that we can call "the chemical of Love" ?
| Quote: | 3) If you can prove that Love exists then can you expound on weather or not Love is a virus threatening the evolution of the planet? Why and what should be done to eradicate Love?
Virus??? |
Yes, a virus. If man, plants and animals are all governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest then is love-morals-ethics a blight on those principles? Are social abnormalities the result of over much sentiment?
Why do we care about degenerate people, shouldn't we just shoot them?
If we care about our brother doesn't that interfere with what should be our only focus, self?
Why do we Love our children, they cost a lot and are always making noise and getting in the way of self?
Why do we love our new born baby, they look like monsters to everyone but us?
If Love were inherent in the mechanistic universe then why don't we love all men equally?
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Are we assuming that an 'atheist' denies the psychological aspect of humanity (emotions, thought, etc.)? If so - why?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Are we assuming that an 'atheist' denies the psychological aspect of humanity (emotions, thought, etc.)? If so - why? |
No, my position is not that they deny Love, I'm just curious how they explain such a supernatural reality.
If God is not logical and one refuse to acknowledge such a reality then I'm trying to understand how an Atheist compartmentalizes Love as a mechanical manifestation of the material realm.
Religion says that God is Love.
colter
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Are we assuming that an 'atheist' denies the psychological aspect of humanity (emotions, thought, etc.)? If so - why? |
No, my position is not that they deny Love, I'm just curious how they explain such a super-material reality.
I'm trying to understand how an Atheist compartmentalizes Love as a mechanical manifestation of the material realm.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | FFT,
Are you an Atheist? |
Yes.
| Colter wrote: | | Outside of sexual attraction are there provable chemical reactions of mind that would always react the same way in a laboratory setting that we can call "the chemical of Love" ? |
Testably, yes. The argument is whether they are the cause or the effect.
| Colter wrote: | | Yes, a virus. If man, plants and animals are all governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest then is love-morals-ethics a blight on those principles? Are social abnormalities the result of over much sentiment? |
You might want to do some of your own investigation into the evolution of altruism.
| Colter wrote: | If God is not logical and one refuse to acknowledge such a reality then I'm trying to understand how an Atheist compartmentalizes Love as a mechanical manifestation of the material realm.
Religion says that God is Love. |
And yet I've found myself quite able to love despite my lack of belief in God.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Are you an Atheist?
Yes. |
Thanks for making that clear, with 5,000 post on a religious forum I didn't know If you were really an atheist or just liked the attention of devils advocacy.
....ps, I have a sense of humor so don't take offence at my sarcasms. My Best friend is agnostic, I never talk to him about God. He's not looking for God at this point in his life. My younger sister is an atheist, one of the nicest people you would ever want to know.
| Quote: | Outside of sexual attraction are there provable chemical reactions of mind that would always react the same way in a laboratory setting that we can call "the chemical of Love" ?
Testably, yes. The argument is whether they are the cause or the effect. |
If these chemicals obey law, who then is the law giver? And further, if there is a chemical of Love what is it? Does the will of the man alter the chemical from one of condemnation to forgiveness or does the chemical alter the man?
| Quote: | | You might want to do some of your own investigation into the evolution of altruism. |
Wright and wrong may be an evolutionary component of mind but altruism results from the influence of super material forces which conspire to lead man to a greater appreciation of truth, beauty and goodness. There is something greater to altruism then self preservation.
"When man loses sight of the love of a personal God, the kingdom of God becomes merely the kingdom of good".
God is Love but Love is not God.
| Quote: | | And yet I've found myself quite able to love despite my lack of belief in God. |
Yes, I used to be a "special case" myself, terminaly unique. 
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | If these chemicals obey law, who then is the law giver? |
Please, don't tell me you're going to try that old hat.
| Colter wrote: | | And further, if there is a chemical of Love what is it? |
Oxytocin, vasopressin, and the nerve growth factor protein.
| Colter wrote: | | Does the will of the man alter the chemical from one of condemnation to forgiveness or does the chemical alter the man? |
| FFT wrote: | | The argument is whether they are the cause or the effect. |
| Colter wrote: | | Wright and wrong may be an evolutionary component of mind but altruism results from the influence of super material forces which conspire to lead man to a greater appreciation of truth, beauty and goodness. There is something greater to altruism then self preservation. |
So you didn't actually try looking for anything on the evolution of altruism. That's cool, I'll just feel free to ignore some of what you say, then.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So you didn't actually try looking for anything on the evolution of altruism. That's cool, I'll just feel free to ignore some of what you say, then. |
I've spent the better part of my life studying the natural evolution of worship, I have tons of stuff on the subject.
Man evolved from animals, that's why we act like them.
It was by design that man first formulated primitive forms of worship based on fear of the unknown, of the inexplicable. As man advanced he became more in tuned to spiritual influences. Animals have fears but no illusions.
Religious institutions are the most stubborn of things, they have failed to modify their more primitive concepts of origins.
| Quote: | If these chemicals obey law, who then is the law giver?
Please, don't tell me you're going to try that old hat. |
"A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific. Man is a material fact of nature, but his life is a phenomenon which transcends the material levels of nature in that it exhibits the control attributes of mind and the creative qualities of spirit." UB
| Quote: | And further, if there is a chemical of Love what is it?
Oxytocin, vasopressin, and the nerve growth factor protein. |
I'll take that as "I can't realy explain it".
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | "A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific. Man is a material fact of nature, but his life is a phenomenon which transcends the material levels of nature in that it exhibits the control attributes of mind and the creative qualities of spirit." UB |
"Nuh uh" -FFT
I could really go into why the whole "laws must have lawgivers  " is malarkey if you wish.
| Colter wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Colter wrote: | | And further, if there is a chemical of Love what is it? |
Oxytocin, vasopressin, and the nerve growth factor protein. |
I'll take that as "I can't realy explain it". |
You didn't ask me to explain it, you asked what chemical(s) was involved. Don't just assume all over the place. Do you want me to explain the processes?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I could really go into why the whole "laws must have lawgivers " is malarkey if you wish. |
Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct.
| Quote: | | You didn't ask me to explain it, you asked what chemical(s) was involved. Don't just assume all over the place. Do you want me to explain the processes? |
Sure.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. |
What
| Colter wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | You didn't ask me to explain it, you asked what chemical(s) was involved. Don't just assume all over the place. Do you want me to explain the processes? |
Sure. |
Beats me! People are understandably reticent to examine things that closely. Here's a few things you could read, though:
1, 2
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi FFT,
Thanks for the link, good articles. The UCLA work reminded me of the saying :
"Human things must be known in order to be loved, but divine things must be loved in order to be known."
As I have said, it's all by design. You would have me believe that if some mass lump of matter sits long enough, "life happens." That a brain would develope an all those chemical reactions would just line up.
| Quote: | Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct.
What |
That was an extrapolation form this:
"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring--these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair's turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle--these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth". Urantia Book
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Do Atheist Love? A Few Questions |
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| Colter wrote: |
1) Can anyone here prove that Love is logical?
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ATOZ:
Hi Colter,
This is so easy!smile
Love is a word.
Love is a word, the only word that loves.
Love loves itself.
Love loves itself as all other words.
Love loves all other words as itself.
All words have opposites.
Love loves itself as all words and their opposites,
and so loves all opposites as itself.
Love is therefore the Premise from which all logic flows logically!smile
In the Logic of Love,
atoz |
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