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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | you are the one who wrote about religious faith in skepticism. I have tried appearantly unsuccessfully for the objective use of the term faith. |
Then you are reaching for an equivocation fallacy. It's irrelevant to say we all have faith in some things. I have faith that when I flick a switch in the bathroom the lights will turn on. But this "faith" would be better termed "experience-based confidence." Skepticism, similarly, can give one experience-based confidence. Like when promised a miracle cure, a skeptic would think it's too good to be true. Then, after research, this assumption of skepticism would bear out, leading to confidence in skepticism.
This is entirely different from believing something without (or even in spite of) evidence.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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FFT:that is exactly what faith is "experience based confidence" The only problem is your experience is different than mine so can they both be different and still truthful? I have never accused you of lying about your experience, I dont even doubt that you have no experience of God. I accept that as a fact, just that my experience is different. Can you accept that is my experience?
I experience God in many ways, my guess is you don't. That is the absolute down and dirty difference between us. The Bible even tells me there are people who just don't experience God so you must be one of them. That's ok by me. Frankly I don't care if you ever become a Christian that is not my job anyway.
The whole point of this little exercise is to demonstrate that this "experience based confidence" is at the root of even atheism and based upon your 'just now' previous thread there is faith even for atheists. Point scored and recorded.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | WOW after I go to work it seems all the good posts happen. I don't know where to begin.
I am enchanted that posts about the mystics cropped up in a thread about Atheism a non-sequitor if ever there was one. I spent years within the mystics camp. Glorying in the glow of that experience, in a sense cutting off my rational mind for the chance at one of these wonderful experiences. The mystics failed completely to communicate their visions to mankind since their claims are that language ruins the experience and therefore destroys their ability to communicate.
If there is one thing I can say about God is that he uses language to communicate with us. Therefore our own meager attempts at reaching up toward God through mysticism, cannot be far from that very same type of communication. (Paradoxes have a limited ability to raise our consciences.) |
45N,
For the reason you stated: all communication has to be in words,:
the mystics really meant what they themselves did not realise they meant:
that it is Hatred of words in communication which ruins communication.
In the Love that makes communication out of NO communication, smile
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
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I myself am a philosophical atheist—I've dismissed the idea of God because it doesn't make sense. You (45) may believe this is because of some hurt because I couldn't "find" Him, but I stopped looking for God after I read the Bible. |
| FFT wrote: |
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I myself am a philosophical atheist—I've dismissed the idea of God because it doesn't make sense. .....I stopped looking for God after I read the Bible. |
Hi FFT,
If you were looking for God in the Bible, I am not surprised you did not find Him in there.
Ever heard of people who go to church looking for God?
They then stop going to church when they run into the devil!
Or,
have you ever heard of the Mullah who, when asked why he was looking under a lighted lampost for the gold ring he lost in the dark of his own home, replied: that's where the light is!
We all try the easy way..first: looking for God in all the wrong places....outside of ourselves!
God can only be found in the dark recesses in our own hearts, not in the light of the bible nor anywhere else.
Then, as those who are trying to find God shd do:
Find God first in your own heart,
then read the Bible or go to church so that when you do run into the devil, you and they handle him or God.
In Summary:
We don't go to church or read the Bible to find God.
We find God in order to read the Bible or go to church so that we can handle any devil in any details we find there.
And we find God in Love.
And we find Love in our own hearts.
What do you think?
I think you have already found God since, as a Philo-sophical atheist, you do have Love for you as a Sophist and as an atheist so that you are both a philospohical atheist and an atheistic philosopher...and God is Love, so Love is God!smile
With the Light of Love in the darkness of our own hearts,
mullatoz |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | FFT:that is exactly what faith is "experience based confidence" |
Um, not by the definition in the Bible. The substance of things hoped for, evidence of things unseen?
| 45degreeN wrote: | | The whole point of this little exercise is to demonstrate that this "experience based confidence" is at the root of even atheism and based upon your 'just now' previous thread there is faith even for atheists. Point scored and recorded. |
You've redefined faith in the same way an addict will justify his addictions by claiming everyone else is addicted to something. A gigantic tu quoque fallacy.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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the definition I go by is the one given by the late Dr Gene Scott Phd.
In the original Greek word Pisteo or Pistis depending upon which variation of "faith" (the verb or the noun) is exactly -"confidence based upon experience." In fact in the Greek (which by the way was the original language the author used) the primary definition is the verb form which requires action based upon that confidence, not just a belief. In English the loss of much nuance is regrettable, but the word should primarily be a verb not a noun.
Your use of the text from the book of Hebrews | Quote: | | The substance of things hoped for, evidence of things unseen? |
is nice and poetic and it is hardly contradictory to the original Greek.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: |
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This is substantially different than your original post.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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holly102869
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 278
Location: Central, Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I truely understand how atheists come to the conclusions they do, it can be really hard to believe in something that you can't see, hear, touch or feel. I have personally been there. I think of the Bible is more of a guide book on how to be a better person. God is not in it. It may have been inspired by him but, I personally can't answer that question and nobody can without a doubt. I have read many book about people saying they were taken by Angels or Jesus to Heaven or Hell. And I have to ask myself "Is this really true?". To them it is. It has never happened to me so I can't say.
I do however hope it is true because if is not what is life for? Why? and a million more questions like those.
My family talked me into going to RCIA at the Catholic church and they wanted to know if I had one question I could ask God what would it be. I said " I would ask him where did he come from?" It seemed to be a logical question to me. I have parents, So does he? They however, did not think the question was a good one because some things should be left a mystery. My question now is, Why a mystery? Can't anyone ever just say I Don't Know. For none of us can say we know for sure unless we have actually seen, heard or touched the actual truth. Some may say, that you can feel it but as I have heard on this site our feeling are not always true.
For me I had rather believe in God and the Hope that there is a purpose for all the things we go through. That if I lead a good life and worship God and believe that Jesus came to cleanse us of our sins that we just might have something wonderful to look forward to. I look at it this way what is the worst thing that could happen if there is no God? Nothing would happen I would just Die and that is going to happen anyway. But now if I believe and he is the truth what will I get? Yes, most likely death but just maybe a new life.
_________________
Bless you,
Holly
Ask,Seek,Knock
For only you can Save yourself. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Well one must warm up to certain concepts, however the operative definition of faith I have consistently used now for nearly twenty years and written about here on this forum now for over a year.
Most Bible teachers use the noun form and incorrectly, meaning they use it in the form where it is something that one can "have" as in a set of beliefs. That might be considered the reportive meaning rather than the original meaning if used in the 1st century AD, when the NT scriptures were being written.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 671
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | the definition I go by is the one given by the late Dr Gene Scott Phd.
In the original Greek word Pisteo or Pistis depending upon which variation of "faith" (the verb or the noun) is exactly -"confidence based upon experience." In fact in the Greek (which by the way was the original language the author used) the primary definition is the verb form which requires action based upon that confidence, not just a belief. In English the loss of much nuance is regrettable, but the word should primarily be a verb not a noun.
Your use of the text from the book of Hebrews | Quote: | | The substance of things hoped for, evidence of things unseen? |
is nice and poetic and it is hardly contradictory to the original Greek. |
Hi 45;
You said,
In the original Greek word Pisteo or Pistis depending upon which variation of "faith" (the verb or the noun) is exactly -"confidence based upon experience."
What experience can you have when dealing with 2000 to 5000 year old mythology?
And how could this “experience” be based on any confidence other than personal belief?
As in “I am absolutely confident that aliens exist.”
Now this is what wikipedia says of faith:
Faith can refer to a religion, or to belief in God. It has two general implications which can be implied either exclusively or mutually:
• To trust:
o Believing a certain variable will act or has the potential to act a specific way despite the potential influence and probability of known or unknown change.
To have faith in ones spouse that he/she will keep a promise of commitment
To have faith that the world will someday be peaceful
To have faith in a person to pay you back
• To believe without reason:
o Believing impulsively, or believing based upon social traditions or personal hopes
In either case, Faith is based upon the interpretation of the intangible (feelings, emotions, etc.) instead of the physically tangible and is primarily associated with religion in modern times.
This is the only way that Religion and in this case Christianity can work as a “Faith” orientation.
Pistis is simply greek for faith.
Its nice that Dr Gene Scott Phd. Can write something that you can use for 20years that is really non-sensical but don’t feel bad, they have built a whole Christian web page around it.
http://www.hopebasedfaith.org/index.htm
Sorry to impact your belief with simple truth, but you know how it is…don’t you? 
Peace.
Siam.
My boss....isn't bossy. |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Relying on a dictionary to get your point across is laughable at best. |
Utilizing a dictionary, allows us to see, objectively, the proper meanings and applications of words.
| FFT wrote: | | Atheism is a position on belief—specifically the lack of a specific kind of belief |
Specifically, and objectively, atheism is not the belief in one god to the exclusion of all others....thus you improperly apply the term to me. I have a natural, and as it is....normal....belief in god/gods, and a specific belief in the nature of said god/gods, which is the belief in one god to the exclusion of all others.
I have to ask, given the overwhelming results of the statistics I listed earlier, why do you seem to dispute the finding, that atheism is not a normal mind set?
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: |
I have to ask, given the overwhelming results of the statistics I listed earlier, why do you seem to dispute the finding, that atheism is not a normal mind set? |
I would dispute this in that even people with religious beliefs don't apply this mind set to many other aspects in their lives (unless they are unusually gullible) - they make an exception for religion. Believing incredible things with no evidence is not the normal mindset, except, perhaps, among the gullible and/or superstitious, or children, who have high dependency and who have not yet gained critical thinking skills. Funnily enough, it is as children that the majority of religious people acquire their religious beliefs. Interesting coincidence...?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Ana,
The finding of the statistical data/facts are indisputable. We have two focus groups....
1. Those who believe in god/gods. Numbering 5 billion.
2. Those who do not believe in god/gods. Numbering 500 million.
A third group of undecided, also numbering 500 million, is secondary to the primary finding that atheism, indisputably, is a deviation from the standard and thus abnormal.
| Ana wrote: | | Funnily enough, it is as children that the majority of religious people acquire their religious beliefs. Interesting coincidence...? |
Well now the discussion moves from the normal belief in god/gods to the nature of god/gods....i.e....acquired religious beliefs.
Atheists are not part of the nature of god/gods discussion.
Given that you have moved the discussion to the nature of god/gods, I contend that you do indeed possess the NATRUAL and NORMAL belief in god/gods at a sub-level, and that it is your rejection of the nature of god/gods that has led you to incorrectly identify with atheism....if indeed you actually profess to atheism.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | Sorry Ana,
The finding of the statistical data/facts are indisputable. We have two focus groups....
1. Those who believe in god/gods. Numbering 5 billion.
2. Those who do not believe in god/gods. Numbering 500 million.
A third group of undecided, also numbering 500 million, is secondary to the primary finding that atheism, indisputably, is a deviation from the standard and thus abnormal. |
Do these statistics cover anything about using the same rationale used to determine that there is a god (or gods) in any other facet of their lives? If not, then these statistics are irrelevant to my point, which talks about the thought processes behind the beliefs, instead of just the beliefs themselves.
| Dust wrote: |
| Ana wrote: | | Funnily enough, it is as children that the majority of religious people acquire their religious beliefs. Interesting coincidence...? |
Well now the discussion moves from the normal belief in god/gods to the nature of god/gods....i.e....acquired religious beliefs.
Atheists are not part of the nature of god/gods discussion.
Given that you have moved the discussion to the nature of god/gods, I contend that you do indeed possess the NATRUAL and NORMAL belief in god/gods at a sub-level, and that it is your rejection of the nature of god/gods that has led you to incorrectly identify with atheism....if indeed you actually profess to atheism. |
No, it's not about the gods, it's about the thinking that leads to belief in them.
Also, the part I coloured red indicates that you very likely acquired your beliefs about god as a child, because you seem to have no ability to conceive as a possibility that what's in red might not actually be true for some people, and it stems also from your miscomprehension of what I actually said.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Do these statistics cover anything about using the same rationale used to determine that there is a god (or gods) in any other facet of their lives? |
No. I see the statistics, both current and historic, as indicating that belief in god(s) is part of the subjective or inner nature of man.
The detailed inherent character or constitution of god(s) can be rationalized, but as I stated, this is not a topic for atheists.
| Ana wrote: | | Also, the part I coloured red indicates that you very likely acquired your beliefs about god as a child, because you seem to have no ability to conceive as a possibility that what's in red might not actually be true for some people, and it stems also from your miscomprehension of what I actually said. |
I was indeed taught about the nature of God as a youngster, but I do not see what that has to do with my notions about you.
I can conceive that some people may actually be atheistic, rather than just professing to be atheist, but I don't think these sort of, shall we say, authentic atheists would be at a bible discussion board....for too long anyway.
Without minimizing the actual reasons, I think the sort of professing atheist we would find here is either one who is searching for some sort of validation, one way or the other....OR....is here in pain and/or bitterness, to somewhat subtley lash out, maybe not so subtley, at times.
Hey, there are all kinds of wrong things that go on in this world. Some very hurtful things can happen to folks in the name of god and/or religion, or through/by things connected to religion. I have heard of some terrible things that would, IMO, tend to validate and fully explain a professed disbelief in god(s).
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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