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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2963
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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The following is a description of satan BEFORE his fall.........
Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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Hi SS
Have you seen the Tyndale Commentary on Ezekiel by John B. Taylor?
 (image views from Amazon.com 4KB, is that acceptable?)
Taylor doesn't even mention the medieval idea that Ezekiel 28 has something to do with fallen angels. Because of context like this:
| Ezekiel wrote: | 28:2 yet you are but a man, and no god,
9 though you are but a man, and no god, |
Anyway, assuming that KJV 'tabrets' is the correct translation, not "gold were your settings and your engravings." (ESV), this would only be one of many references in this chapter to Hiram's priviledged relationship with Solomon, and the grace from which Tyre had fallen by Ezekiel's time. It wouldn't make either of Hiram's musical instruments bad, any more than the instruments in Solomon's temple.
God bless
S.
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2963
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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| Steven3 wrote: | Hi SS
Have you seen the Tyndale Commentary on Ezekiel by John B. Taylor?
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You must remember that knowledge is progressive, over time......and, Tyndale did not have the knowledge that God has granted the last generation.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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Hi TSS | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Steven3 wrote: | Hi SS
Have you seen the Tyndale Commentary on Ezekiel by John B. Taylor?
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You must remember that knowledge is progressive, over time......and, Tyndale did not have the knowledge that God has granted the last generation. |
According to the Bible knowledge is regressive. Each generation gets further from God.
Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Sadly the same is true in the church, see 1Tim4 and 2Tim4. The 1st Century church knew more of the truth than the 3rd, and by the Dark Ages, interpretations like the one you've apparently picked up about Ezekiel 28 started to proliferate.
The "Tyndale" series is an imprint of IVP, a conservative Trinitarian publishing house (Tyndale wouldn't have been too happy with them using his name!). John Bernard Taylor (b. 1929), is a British priest, he was Bishop of St Albans 1980-1995.
As Bishop Taylor points out Ezekiel 28 relates to the deterioration of Tyre's relations with Israel:
1Kings 9:11 and Hiram king of Tyre had supplied Solomon with cedar and cypress timber and gold, as much as he desired, King Solomon gave to Hiram twenty cities in the land of Galilee.
2 Chronicles 11 Then Hiram the king of Tyre answered in a letter that he sent to Solomon, “Because the Lord loves his people, he has made you king over them.” 12 Hiram also said, “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, who made heaven and earth, who has given King David a wise son, who has discretion and understanding, who will build a temple for the Lord and a royal palace for himself.
2:13 “Now I have sent a skilled man, who has understanding, Huram-abi, 14 the son of a woman of the daughters of Dan, and his father was a man of Tyre. He is trained to work in gold, silver, bronze, iron, stone, and wood, and in purple, blue, and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and to do all sorts of engraving and execute any design that may be assigned him, with your craftsmen, the craftsmen of my lord, David your father. 15 Now therefore the wheat and barley, oil and wine, of which my lord has spoken, let him send to his servants. 16 And we will cut whatever timber you need from Lebanon and bring it to you in rafts by sea to Joppa, so that you may take it up to Jerusalem.”
A probable reason that Hiram was a cherub in Eden was that he had supplied to Solomon 120 talents of gold. The gold with which the Holy of Holies where the cherubim were found.
As further proof that Ez28 has nothing to do with fallen angels, you won't find this passage mentioned in any of the copious rabbinical legends about Azazel, Shemihazah and so on falling out of heaven. The idea is so at odds with the context it never even occured to Jews, and isn't even considered worth mentioning by Bishop Taylor
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2963
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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| Steven3 wrote: |
According to the Bible knowledge is regressive. Each generation gets further from God. |
Yes, the dividing line is getting more clear as time goes on.
Mankind is getting further away from God with each generation.
The evidence of this is seen in TV.
Simple look at the TV programs of the 50's & 60's compared to todays TV.
More graphic violence, ect.
As the Bible states......'satan, which deceives the whole world' (Rev. 12:9) is fast becoming a reality.
The Bible states that when Jesus Christ again, the world will be as in Noah's day.....where every thought of the imagination will be evil.
This is but another Bible prophecy coming true.
Even in the Christian world satan rules.....
2 Corinthians
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
The Bible even predicted satan's hand in turning the Lord's day of worship from the 7th day sabbath (Saturday), to Sunday ( a pagan day of worship).
Satan's influence in music is from the calming music of yesteryear, to the 'Christian rock' we often see today.
Supposedly to attract the young to church.
BUT, is designed to create chaos, in the human soul.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1749
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | Mankind is getting further away from God with each generation. The evidence of this is seen in TV. Simple look at the TV programs of the 50's & 60's compared to todays TV. More graphic violence, ect.
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Since I have made my living as a musician my entire life, you get my attention with topics of art and censorship.
Studies have been done on topics like pre-marital sex, comparing older generations with current. And have found the older generations were not as "moral" as we paint them out to be. Those "moral" generations still partied and did their thing. The difference they find is that people in older generations didn't TALK about it as much as we do today.
Similiar with the TV shows you reference - censors were very heavy back then. So I think this is more a reflection of media censorship.
For me, I like the open discussion that is encouraged today. This website is an example of that. When people are open, warts and all, then we are better informed to make decisions. That is my personal opinion.
Being a life-long musician, I have often come across conversations of Satan in music. It is also usually true that the person saying Satan is in the music, also does not like the music they are referring to.
My strong opinion is that Satan is not inherent in art. It is people's perceptions of said art that superimpose a label on it, and call it Satan.
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2963
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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My emphasis is that satan uses music for purposes of his own....just as he has used certain Bible verses to further his own agenda.
Many things that are alright in themselves, can be used towards evil purposes.
A gun for instance, is perfectly safe.....as long as it is out of the hands of certain people.
In the right hands, it can protect ones life and family, BUT, in the wrong hands, can be an instrument of destruction.
YET, it is not the fault of the gun, but HOW it is used.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1749
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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And that is all perception. If a gun kills Lincoln it might be considered bad. If a gun kills Hitler it might be considered good.
I see no evidence of Satan in either. Just actions and perception.
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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Hi Admin
When I said "According to the Bible knowledge is regressive; each generation gets further from God." I was only referring to Silver Surfer's comment application of the 5th Century interpretation of Ezekiel's cherub that "Tyndale did not have the knowledge that God has granted the last generation." The reactions against music in worship might also be a form of that getting further from Biblical models.
| admin wrote: | | And have found the older generations were not as "moral" as we paint them out to be. Those "moral" generations still partied and did their thing. |
Quite - there's just as many medieval and renaissance songs that would need a Parental Advisory as there are today. Often by very religious composers with a sense of the natural, and to us bawdy.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Steven3 wrote: | Hi SS
Have you seen the Tyndale Commentary on Ezekiel by John B. Taylor?
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You must remember that knowledge is progressive, over time......and, Tyndale did not have the knowledge that God has granted the last generation. |
Brother Surfer,
I marvel that a religious group such as the Adventists, who pride themselves on their superior understanding of scripture, and most of whom can quote more scripture than average Christians, still hold to man's traditional understanding of the nature of Satan. In all likelihood, the understanding of Satan as a fallen angelic choir director who attempted an insurrection against God in heaven came from Catholicism! Have you considered the fact that your teaching on Satan is pretty much the same as that of the Catholic Church? Yet you affirm that they are wrong in other areas, and in fact I think you'd go so far as to say they do not have the truth of God at all. Is this another Catholic dogma that Adventists adhere to, in addition to an earthly sabbath observance, and the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salvas ("No salvation outside our church")?
The fallen choir directing angel concept is not the one held to by the scripture.
Perhaps this is not the last generation then, seeing that you and your Adventist friends have not finished all your homework yet. Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do. 
Even more astounding is that a man such as Tyndale has done his homework, searched out the truth of God's Word, and made the knowlege available to you and I. Yet you and other Adventists dogmatically cling to the teaching of man. 
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Last edited by Zathrus on Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1749
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Steven3 - I have a book called "Libertine Lyrics" - a collection of early poetry that is bawdy. Very fun reading how the meanings are veiled to seem so innocent.
I agree, things are pretty much as they always have been since humans surfaced. We are varied creatures.
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2963
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | And that is all perception. If a gun kills Lincoln it might be considered bad. If a gun kills Hitler it might be considered good.
I see no evidence of Satan in either. Just actions and perception. |
Killing Hitler, would have been considered BAD.....by Jesus Christ.
"Thou shalt not Kill" applies to everyone, both good or bad.
Trying to say who lives and who is worthy of being killed....is trying to replace God, with themselves.
Yet, another problem so-called Christians have involving politics.....in trying to force the goverment into conforming to "Christian" ideals when Christians don't know God's ideals themselves.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | The following is a description of satan BEFORE his fall.........
Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. |
Hi SS,
As you go from subject to subject, the same principle of Love for yourslef as God loves you applies:
This is proof again that if we hate any music or any being we hate God who created Lucifer and everything else.
Lucifer became satan when he began to hate himself and what God made.
Thus, if we hate satan as he hated God and as satan hated what God created in Him as lucifer, we are being re-influenced by satan to have the same attitude towards God and his ceation as Lucifer had to become satan.
Isn't that the perfect deception? For satan to get you to hate satan so satan can get you to disobey God who tells you to love satan, your adversary?
That is how satan gets you to hate God when God is your adversary.
Do you love Lucifer before he became satan?
in Love of all music and in Hate of the sin of hating any music,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | admin wrote: | And that is all perception. If a gun kills Lincoln it might be considered bad. If a gun kills Hitler it might be considered good.
I see no evidence of Satan in either. Just actions and perception. |
Killing Hitler, would have been considered BAD.....by Jesus Christ.
"Thou shalt not Kill" applies to everyone, both good or bad.
Trying to say who lives and who is worthy of being killed....is trying to replace God, with themselves.
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Exactly, SS!
So why are you allowing satan to influence you into KILLING your Love for satan by HATING satan?
in God's Love which kills the sin of Hatred for satan,
atoz
Last edited by atoz on Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Satan, was Created a Musical Being |
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| admin wrote: |
..... It is also usually true that the person saying Satan is in the music, also does not like the music they are referring to.
My strong opinion is that Satan is not inherent in art. It is people's perceptions of said art that superimpose a label on it, and call it Satan. |
Correct, BA.
Notice how 'not liking' goes with Satan: as soon as we accept Satan's 'not liking,' we have to reject what or who we don't like.
Whereas, Love for both what or who we accept and reject still means Love for what we reject.
in the Acceptance of Love that is made whole & perfect in rejection, 2 cor 12:9-10,
atoz |
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