 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Pete wrote: | VCO,
Your first problem is that you have assumed the trinity as Biblical by your background heritage rather than sound Biblical evidence. |
NO not by background heritage. I know it to be Truth because of an inner-personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. And why must you have that "born again" experience before the Doctrine of the Trinity makes sense to you?
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
No "born again" living spirit = No spiritual understanding of the Trinity.
_________________
Titus 2:13
VCO |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="VCO"] | Pete wrote: | | Quote: | VCO,
Your first problem is that you have assumed the trinity as Biblical by your background heritage rather than sound Biblical evidence. |
NO not by background heritage. I know it to be Truth because of an inner-personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. And why must you have that "born again" experience before the Doctrine of the Trinity makes sense to you? |
well sir there are some here who have had such an experience and can honestly say a lot of your doctrine makes no bibloical sense and calls for massive speculation built on assumptions...
| Quote: | 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
No "born again" living spirit = No spiritual understanding of the Trinity. |
where did it say that chaplin?...oh i see so you are speaking boldly now adding to the word, saying if others say you are not right then they are not saved....far out...
so when your points are shown that they can't hold up all you can do is imply slander against your bro's in HIM by saying they are not born again and your are by this superknowledge you have but can't support?....far out.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theseldomscene wrote: | | oh yes and chaplin...since you brought it up...you know numbers and all annd what they mean...can you show the seraphim were speaking to three somethings as opposed to declaring the glory of one something... |
But of course they are declaring the glory of "ONE" something. The Father is Holy, The Son is Holy, and The Spirit is Holy, AND THE THREE ARE "ONE" GOD (or Lord of hosts), NOT THREE GODS.
Isaiah 6:3 (NKJV)
3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
2 John 1:3 (NKJV)
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
John 8:58-59 (NKJV)
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Exodus 3:14 (NKJV)
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
Colossians 2:9 (NKJV)
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
2 Chronicles 15:1 (GW)
1 God's Spirit came to Azariah, son of Oded.
2 Peter 1:21 (NKJV)
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
1 Samuel 2:2 (NKJV)
2 "No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.
Psalms 62:7 (NKJV)
7 In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refuge, is in God.
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV)
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 10:30 (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one. (NOTE: the word "my" is NOT in the original language, Jesus is NOT the offspring of GOD, He is part of God Himself in the Flesh.)
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 3:5-8 (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
2 Corinthians 13:13 (GW)
13 May the Lord Jesus Christ's good will, God's love, and the Holy Spirit's presence be with all of you!
_________________
Titus 2:13
VCO |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Duet 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father,
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VCO wrote: | | theseldomscene wrote: | | oh yes and chaplin...since you brought it up...you know numbers and all annd what they mean...can you show the seraphim were speaking to three somethings as opposed to declaring the glory of one something... |
But of course they are declaring the glory of "ONE" something. The Father is Holy, The Son is Holy, and The Spirit is Holy, AND THE THREE ARE "ONE" GOD (or Lord of hosts), NOT THREE GODS.
Isaiah 6:3 (NKJV)
3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
2 John 1:3 (NKJV)
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
John 8:58-59 (NKJV)
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Exodus 3:14 (NKJV)
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
Colossians 2:9 (NKJV)
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
2 Chronicles 15:1 (GW)
1 God's Spirit came to Azariah, son of Oded.
2 Peter 1:21 (NKJV)
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
1 Samuel 2:2 (NKJV)
2 "No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.
Psalms 62:7 (NKJV)
7 In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refuge, is in God.
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV)
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 10:30 (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one. (NOTE: the word "my" is NOT in the original language, Jesus is NOT the offspring of GOD, He is part of God Himself in the Flesh.)
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 3:5-8 (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
2 Corinthians 13:13 (GW)
13 May the Lord Jesus Christ's good will, God's love, and the Holy Spirit's presence be with all of you! |
wow all this and nothing here supports what you say about gen 1 nor does it support what you show about is. 6....for the book of rev...where the same phrase is being used shows it is about GOD's eternal glory...was, is, is to come...not three folks sir...
not talking to three people and context shows the seraphim was being talked to in is 6 so chaplin...
you can offer those other verses as a distractiion if you please but they don't change the fact that you are and were wrong in your use of gen 1 and isaiah 6....and you are just using other verses that contextually are not invovled to build something that is not there sir...and your verses you provided don't say anything about a three in one anything.....
they were just talk more about the proper doctrine of familytarianism which is the truth of the bible...
the trinitarian doctrine does have some truth's but it stops short and doesn't fully look into or understand the matter ....therefore they assume what sounds good to them...
no disrespect but i have seen nothing here to show that is not an accurate account of the tri. camps doctrunal activities imo...
but those that have tried to study it deeply to gather more knowledge of it, once they do; all i have ever known have became...
familytarian.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VCO wrote: | | Pete wrote: | VCO,
Your first problem is that you have assumed the trinity as Biblical by your background heritage rather than sound Biblical evidence. |
NO not by background heritage. I know it to be Truth because of an inner-personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. And why must you have that "born again" experience before the Doctrine of the Trinity makes sense to you?
No "born again" living spirit = No spiritual understanding of the Trinity. |
Apparently you are able to discern what Trinitarian authorities are incapable of doing.
Usually after a lot of unintelligeable doubletalk, Trinitarian writers will throw up their hands and say that the doctrine of the Trinity is beyond mere human understanding, and we just have to accept it because our salvation is dependent on believing what they admittedly cannot explain. A serious case of the blind leading the halt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | ="Pete
Apparently you are able to discern what Trinitarian authorities are incapable of doing.
Usually after a lot of unintelligeable doubletalk, Trinitarian writers will throw up their hands and say that the doctrine of the Trinity is beyond mere human understanding, . . . |
Like I said in my original Post, I have no problem understanding it, because you, me, and everyone else on this planet are little trinities (body, soul, and spirit that make up one human being).
_________________
Titus 2:13
VCO |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | ="theseldomscene"]
. . . you can offer those other verses as a distraction . . .
|
No, I showed verses that described the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit with attributes or Titles that ONLY belong to GOD.
_________________
Titus 2:13
VCO |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello VCO  | VCO wrote: | | Like I said in my original Post, I have no problem understanding it, because you, me, and everyone else on this planet are little trinities (body, soul, and spirit that make up one human being). |
If you don't mind me noting it, given that in the parallel "asleep/awake" thread you're arguing that one-third of that triad can survive without the other two there's a slight hint of iron. 
See also What Leon Morris has to say on 1Thess.5:23, posted under Epistles, because it's not relevant to the Trinity thread.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| VCO wrote: | | Quote: | ="theseldomscene"]
. . . you can offer those other verses as a distraction . . .
|
No, I showed verses that described the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit with attributes or Titles that ONLY belong to GOD. |
what i am saying sir..is..when did i ever say anything about that one way or another?...
i have said several times that is not what we are discussing....
we...you and i...
were discussing your improper use of gen 3 and isaiah 6...
that is all i was addressing at this point which is why i say you are offering distractions...
but since you brought it up....the reason they have the same title is because they are one....not three...and it is...
FATHER, MOTHER, SON....
the female never taking glory but doing alll things well does all things for the glory of HER MAN in accordance to HIS will which is to glorify the SON to the glory of the FATHER...
then...when all is ready with peace in the kingdom and the house finished....the SON must have a wife...
a wedding arranged by the FATHER...the bride picked by the FATHER prepared for the marriage and drawn to(introduced to) the SON by the MOTHER...so the family may grow...
for the FATHER wishes to hear the pitter patter of little grand babies feet running up and down the hall's of HIS house.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3376
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tss wrote: | | FATHER, MOTHER, SON.... |
ah..........there's the trinity
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
|
|
| VCO wrote: | John 8:58-59 (NKJV)
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." |
Christ's reference to Abraham is to affirm his (Christ's) pre-eminence, not pre-existence. The Jews had claimed that Abraham was their father (vs. 39) and so Christ establishes his pre-eminence in the divine purpose by stating that before Abraham was, "I am". He did not say "before Abraham was, I was" as it is frequently misread. But the Jews, like modern-day trinitarians, misunderstood Jesus. He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham. This is indicated by his prior remark: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (vs. 56). Abraham, to whom the gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), "saw" the day of Christ through the eye of faith. Christ was "foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times". (1 Peter 1:20). He was foreordained in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) but literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate.
There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). Jesus simply uses the present tense of the verb "to be". Even if this verse were intended to be read as an allusion to the divine name, this is not proof that Christ was claiming to be "Very God". The divine name declared, "I will be what I will be". (Exod. 3:14 R.S.V. mg.). The name was a prophetic declaration of the divine purpose. Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16), "the word" (Greek: logos) "made flesh." (John 1:14). As such, he was the expression of the divine character, "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14 cf. Exod. 33:19), and became the "firstborn among many brethren". (Rom. 8:29). Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42). ](Wrested Scriptures by Ron Abel-BOLD mine) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
VCO,
What some of these folks are trying to explain is that Jesus was a messenger, the word messenger made flesh, that the messenger as a personality did not exist before Abraham. He was only an idea in Gods plan.
The problem is the inconsistency of the theory because if we follow the entire story to it's present day conclusion we now have a temporary man messenger as our God; with all power and authority in heaven and on earth, sitting next to God as a man but in a heavenly, invisible realm.
Also, not only are we illiterate but the Pharisees were also illiterate, they misunderstood him when he spoke as well. It would seem that only anti-Trinitarians are able to decode the labyrinth of meaning in his double speak.
What we have is finite man limiting the possibility of Absolute deity, in their mind it's not possible for One God to create divine coordinate sons that are in perfect harmony with his plan of infinity. Adam and Eve could never have been immortal and unified in oneness to begin with according to this reasoning. The apple dosn't fall far from the tree.
So where do the heretics originate, in a common reading of the scripture. It's between the lines that we should have looked all along.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
wow...what a post completely lacking in anything credible ...just demaning words towards those that disagree with them...like most cults....  .... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
|
|
| Colter wrote: | VCO,
What some of these folks are trying to explain is that Jesus was a messenger, the word messenger made flesh, that the messenger as a personality did not exist before Abraham. He was only an idea in Gods plan. |
That is precisely what Christ was VCO - Proof:-
Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42). KJV / King James Standard Version.
Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. The Jews were absolute monotheists. So was Paul. The Jewish Messiah is not a divine figure. The Messiah would be an ordinary human being that would do privileged “God-things.” The Son of God was a simple way to express the closeness of the Messiah’s actions to the will and power of God. Only the gods of the pagans had “sons” or offspring. “It should be noted that Paul never called Jesus ‘God.’ He called him the ‘Son of God’ in its Jewish sense. He certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself; he had simply possessed God’s ‘powers’ and ‘spirit,’ which manifested God’s activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.”. (p160)
In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. When John wrote his almost-Gnostic Gospel almost a half-century later, his use of the “Word” as a pre-existent form is used within Jewish context as well—the same context he used for words like glory, spirit, divine wisdom, and others. “When Paul and John spoke about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting that he was a second divine ‘person’ in the later Trinitarian sense. They were indicating that Jesus had transcended temporal and individual modes of existence. Because the ‘power’ and ‘wisdom’ that he represented were activities that derived from God, he had in some way expressed ‘what there was from the beginning.’”35
Also it needs to be kept in mind, although I mentioned it earlier, Jesus never claimed that his divine powers were his alone or special to him. On many occasions he promised his followers that if they had faith they could exercise these same powers. “By faith, of course, he did not mean adopting the correct theology but cultivating an inner attitude of surrender and openness to God.”37 This inner attitude is the Kingdom of God that Jesus proclaimed: (p.161) (All Bold Text by Robert) - (How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)
| Colter wrote: | | The problem is the inconsistency of the theory because if we follow the entire story to it's present day conclusion we now have a temporary man messenger as our God; with all power and authority in heaven and on earth, sitting next to God as a man but in a heavenly, invisible realm. |
Again Colter condemns his own argument and there is absolutely no inconsistency in Christ's testimony and examples to us: -
Jesus himself said " I can of mine own self do nothing: . . ." (John 5:30) KJV
Colter is saying Christ is a liar who really can do everything but has apparently decided that Christ is referring to his mortal capacity and not his trinitarian fabricated 'godly capacity?
Christ is not a liar and when he states "I can of mine own self do nothing: . . ."Any one with any shred of credibility would accept Christ at his word. This doesn't suit the trinity doctrine founded on murders and evil and atrocities, so they say 'that's the godman 'man' bits speaking' and they divide Christ into a 'double minded and unstable godman' (i.e. not my own will but my God's Will (James 1: 8) KJV) that apparently 'speaks like a god one minute' and 'then speaks like just a man' in the next, all in defiance of the Scriptural text against trinitarianism.
| Colter wrote: | | Also, not only are we illiterate but the Pharisees were also illiterate, they misunderstood him when he spoke as well. It would seem that only anti-Trinitarians are able to decode the labyrinth of meaning in his double speak. |
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not(Matt. 23: 3) KJV.
You see that Christ knew that the Pharisees were not 'illiterate' at all, Christ knew that they 'knew the Laws intimately and were highly educated in them' however what they did not do was 'apply them correctly' as God would have them do, but rather they were highly educated hypocrites who knew the Laws but imposed and burdened every one else with them and generally minimised the Laws against themselves. So they were not 'illiterate' at all, rather they (like trinitarians) didn't understand what Christ was saying and still don't and still don't understand the Scriptures.
| Colter wrote: | | What we have is finite man limiting the possibility of Absolute deity, in their mind it's not possible for One God to create divine coordinate sons that are in perfect harmony with his plan of infinity. . . . |
Well Christ certainly was 'finite' because he died and was raised again by his God Proof:- But God raised him from the dead: (Acts 13:30) KJV
| Colter wrote: | | So where do the heretics originate, in a common reading of the scripture. It's between the lines that we should have looked all along. |
Well Christ was probably the biggest heretic and radical of all, because he brought his God's Gospel to preach against and attempt to correct the current false doctrines prevalent at the time.
Just like the corrupt Pharisees, Colter's doctrine and his like minded trinitarians also contain that same 'leaven = corruption' in their doctrine, because their doctrine was founded on evil and atrocities and like the Mormons who run to their BOM / Book of Mormon, Colter likewise continually runs to his UB text, because the Bible on its own, also fails his current belief system.
Cheers! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
