 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
StElsewhere
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:02 am Post subject: Why are Called not watching? |
 |
|
Why, are we who are the Called not watching?
There are true Saints of God which are sleeping and not watching ...watching what? you ask... Well let's see what we are admonished to watch for read:
Mar 13:32¶But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34[For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Mar 13:36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Mar 13:37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Many of us are sleeping...sleeping SPIRITUALLY... all caught up the cares of day to day life ...and the living of it...doing their own thing...turning blind eyes to sin...allowing ungodly practices to be done in their homes...absorbing as much of the world as they possible can...and still think we can do all these things and stay saved ...the LORD is saying not so...We are to come out and be SEPARATE are we not? Now I'm not saying we are not...good people ...godly people... and yet the Word says many of us are asleep Spiritual Sleep-Walkers ... and ...it is to the coming of the LORD to which His people...or better... those who call themselves His people... are to wake up to ....Jesus' eminent return...We are to wake up from the lethargy...and sins of omission...clear out the small sins...that have been over looked ...the sins we convince ourselves are "O.K"...or "it's not really that bad" ,,,or the real clincher..."everyone is doing it" ...The LORD wants us ALL to clean house...repent...wash the laundry ...get baptized (or even get re-baptized) ...we all need to get rid of the "little leaven" that leavens the hole lump...it is the "little foxes" that destroys the vine... is it not?...Because He is coming for a church without "spot or wrinkle" and then once we do the spot cleaning and ironing...then will we be prepared for the great trial to come...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
garyrob
Not So Newbie
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 8
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Why are the called not watching? |
|
|
| I would guess that the reason many of the called are not watching is because Mark 13:30 states that all of the things stated in Mark 13 were to take place during that generation which which would include the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
StElsewhere
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Why are the called not watching? |
|
|
| garyrob wrote: | | I would guess that the reason many of the called are not watching is because Mark 13:30 states that all of the things stated in Mark 13 were to take place during that generation which which would include the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. |
So you say this to say what exactly  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garyrob
Not So Newbie
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 8
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: Why are called not watching? |
|
|
I was not necessarily taking issue with your suggestions. I just don't believe that Mark 13 is talking about things we (in 2007) should be watching for. Mark was writing of a very specific event that would be taking place in 70 a.d. when Jerusalem was besieged by the Romans. (see also Matthew 24 and Luke 21). For additional information, the following books are quite helpful.
"The Last Days According to Jesus"
by R.C. Sproul
"Before Jerusalem fell"
by Kenneth Gentry
"The Beast of revelation"
also by Kenneth gentry |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
StElsewhere
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Why are called not watching? |
|
|
| garyrob wrote: | I was not necessarily taking issue with your suggestions. I just don't believe that Mark 13 is talking about things we (in 2007) should be watching for. Mark was writing of a very specific event that would be taking place in 70 a.d. when Jerusalem was besieged by the Romans. (see also Matthew 24 and Luke 21). For additional information, the following books are quite helpful.
"The Last Days According to Jesus"
by R.C. Sproul
"Before Jerusalem fell"
by Kenneth Gentry
"The Beast of revelation"
also by Kenneth gentry |
I care not for men who were not writing under Holy Unction...are you of the belief that all scripture is fulfilled? ...I have acquaintance several posters with such a POV...are you one? ...If not ...please explain you contention that the scripture given is not speaking to us today... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Welcome, garyrob. I had much the same thoughts regarding this topic as you.
St Elsewhere, since you care not for the writing of Bible students who have done some homework, how about if we let God's Word speak for itself?
Mark 13
| Quote: | 1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. |
I shall not quote the whole chapter in order to keep this post brief.
I think we would all acknowlege that Jesus is speaking of end time events from verse 5 and on. In other words, His entire Olivet discourse dealt with eschatological events. Just about all Christians will agree on that.
What we often fail to notice is verses 1-4. These verses tell us what the entire rest of the chapter is all about! What are "these things" that the desciples mention in verse 4? They wanted to know when "these things" would happen, and what signs they were to look for, to know that they would happen soon. But what things were they talking about?
The answer is in verse 2. Verse 2 defines for us exactly what the subject of the Olivet discourse really is. It is, as some here like to say, a "plain, simple statement". You can't argue with what Jesus plainly said. The entire chapter is foretelling the signs and events that would accompany the fullfillment of Jesus' prediction that the temple, the heart of the old covenant order of worship, would be destroyed completely.
Why all the language about the sun going dark and stars falling, etc later in the chapter? Because the prophets in the old testament described this same event in such figurative language. And Jesus was making it plain to those hearing HIm that the destruction of the temple, which neither He nor they knew the hour which it was to happen at that time, would be the fulfillment of all that the prophets had foretold about the end of the age. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garyrob
Not So Newbie
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 8
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Zathrus for jumping in here.
I would ask, however, how would you harmonize verse 5 onward as referring to end times, in light of Mark 11:30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"?
I also believe that there is a connection to many of the events mentioned in the book of Revelation.
Consider for instance:
Revelation 1:1 (ESV)
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Revelation 1:3 (ESV)
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 a.d. was a major event that brought fierce retribution upon the evil Jewish leaders that crucified Jesus.
Blessings,
Garyrob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garyrob wrote: | Thanks Zathrus for jumping in here.
I would ask, however, how would you harmonize verse 5 onward as referring to end times, in light of Mark 11:30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"? |
garyrob,
Sorry, perhaps I should have worded that "end of the age", not "end times". I was not using "end times" in the way most modern Christians think of it. The "end times" that Jesus was talking about in Mark 13 was the end of the age that was then present, not the end of our age.
I did make that point in the 2nd last paragraph of my post. Jesus does not change topics at any point in the Olivet discourse. It is an answer to the disciples' question of when the temple would be destroyed and how would they know if it was very soon to happen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garyrob
Not So Newbie
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 8
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: When will these things take place? |
|
|
Thanks Zathrus for the clarification. Would you also agree that most of Revelation is also about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.?
StElsewhere, What are your thoughts on the discussion at this point?
[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: Re: When will these things take place? |
|
|
| garyrob wrote: | | Thanks Zathrus for the clarification. Would you also agree that most of Revelation is also about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.? |
Yes I definitely believe that.
Rev 10:7
| Quote: | | 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. |
The mystery of God which the book of Revelation revealed, and which was finished at the end of the age according to the verse above was nothing other than everything that the prophets of the old testament prophesied about. The message that the prophets of the old testament foretold but themselves could not truly understand was nothing less than the coming of this everlasting kingdom of grace and truth which we call the new covenant. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
StElsewhere
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zathrus wrote: | Welcome, garyrob. I had much the same thoughts regarding this topic as you.
St Elsewhere, since you care not for the writing of Bible students who have done some homework, how about if we let God's Word speak for itself?
Mark 13
| Quote: | 1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. |
I shall not quote the whole chapter in order to keep this post brief.
I think we would all acknowlege that Jesus is speaking of end time events from verse 5 and on. In other words, His entire Olivet discourse dealt with eschatological events. Just about all Christians will agree on that.
What we often fail to notice is verses 1-4. These verses tell us what the entire rest of the chapter is all about! What are "these things" that the desciples mention in verse 4? They wanted to know when "these things" would happen, and what signs they were to look for, to know that they would happen soon. But what things were they talking about?
The answer is in verse 2. Verse 2 defines for us exactly what the subject of the Olivet discourse really is. It is, as some here like to say, a "plain, simple statement". You can't argue with what Jesus plainly said. The entire chapter is foretelling the signs and events that would accompany the fullfillment of Jesus' prediction that the temple, the heart of the old covenant order of worship, would be destroyed completely.
Why all the language about the sun going dark and stars falling, etc later in the chapter? Because the prophets in the old testament described this same event in such figurative language. And Jesus was making it plain to those hearing HIm that the destruction of the temple, which neither He nor they knew the hour which it was to happen at that time, would be the fulfillment of all that the prophets had foretold about the end of the age. |
The disagreement is that you say let the WOG speak for itself...then say that what was written was strictly figurative...just because the day when the all those things has clearly NOT happened yet...you say it won't be as it is written... well TRUE bible students should well know that the WOG is written with dual purposes...Natural and Spiritual... and also to be repeated as many time as the LORD desires...('
Hsa 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| StElsewhere wrote: | | just because the day when the all those things has clearly NOT happened yet.. |
But Jesus said the day when all those things were to happen was the day in which the temple would be completely destroyed.
We can look back in history and see that that has happened. And you do not have grounds to separate what the Lord said later in the chapter from what He stated plainly at the beginning was the topic of His Olivet discourse. There is no indication given that He changes topics anywhere in the chapter.
And there is no indication in scripture that some of the things Jesus foretold would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem, and others 1000's of years later. In fact, in the parallel passage in Luke 21, Jesus plainly states regarding the destruction of Jerusalem:
| Quote: | 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (clearly this is the destruction of Jerusalem)
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. |
And with regard to understanding the words of prophecy figuratively, if you insist they must be understood literally, then you must also take Jesus' statement in Mark 13 literally: | Quote: | | 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. |
The Lord was not speaking here of some future generation either, for He says this right after saying this:
| Quote: | | 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. |
Who is "ye"? Who was the Lord speaking to? His disciples! And it will not do to say the statement applies to all Christians in general, because it plainly is about an event that was to happen only once, in the lives of only one generation of believers. Why would He address this statement to His disciples if He had no idea whether they'd actually live to see it? Why did He not say "they" instead of "ye"? Because He knew perfectly well the time for the fulfillment of all things that the prophets had written was before His generation passed away. You cannot force the text to say otherwise.
And as for the things in the chapter which premillenialists latch on to to say its fulfillment lies in our future, let me ask you this: In Isaiah 13, the prophet prophesied:
| Quote: | 1The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. |
Now we have only to look back in history to see that ancient Babylon was destroyed as Isaiah prophesied. But...
Did the stars literally go out?
Did the sun become dark?
Did the moon cease shining?
And notice that Isaiah calls this destruction "the day of the Lord". The early church awaited and preached that the day of the Lord was coming in their generation. What grounds would they have had to expect that the day of the Lord coming in their generation would be accompanied with literal astronomical signs such as the moon, sun and stars going out?
Notice that in verse 5, Isaiah even says that this event is the coming of the Lord. He was coming to visit in judgement! Did God visibly appear in the sky when the Medes and Persians destroyed Babylon?
Why would the early church, and even the non-believers in Israel who they preached to, expect a visible appearance of the Lord in the sky if they knew anything about the prophecies in the old testament?
St Elsewhere, it occurs to me that offering proofs from scripture as I have done above will not move you, though I will post them for the benefit of others who may be blessed reading them. St Elsewhere, what you need is not a change of opinion or doctrine, supported by words and proofs. I sense that what is really needed is a change of heart. The God you serve is an angry one, just about fed up and ready to take vengeance and bring down judgement.
Brother, the kingdom of God has come, and it is a kingdom of love, mercy, compassion, and His everlasting kindness. Open your heart, not to words, even those of scripture, but to the risen Lord Jesus, reigning in glory, ruling with mercy and righteousness. Not the righteousness of outward piety and morality, but the righteousness He has given as a free gift, imputed freely to all who ask and believe. Open your heart, brother. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
open your eyes zath and read it again...your own agruement of those verse hurts the preterist stand sir..
not much could help it after all...
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2435
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
The situation is well written about where even the very elect are not allowed to come into the kingdom (Luke 14).
I am not surprised about the OP though, your assumption is that anyone who has ever proclaimed Christ as Lord will make it in yet Jesus Himself said that not everyone who calls me lord will enter into the kingdom.
Matt7:21-23 | Quote: | 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
antiaging
Little Goldfish
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 51
Location: New Orleans LA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Why are called not watching? |
|
|
The writings in Mark 13 are not about AD
70.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
According to Daniel that abomination of desolation event happens about 3 and one half years before the end of the world, and 3 and a half years before the resurrection of the just and Jesus returns.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The verses in Mark 13 are about the time of the abomination of desolation in Daniel. That happens 1290 days before the end. This endtime scenario in Daniel involves the resurrection of the dead. That has not happened yet.
Mark is referring to the last 3 and a half years till the end of the world and the time before it and after it leading up to the second coming of Jesus. All of this is in the future.
Preterism is false.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
That is not referring to the generation of AD 70. From the context of the scriptures before it, it is refering to the end time generation that will see the signs that are spoken of in Mark 13:24-27. It is the generation that will see the signs that he is referring to. Those signs have not happened yet.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
