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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Hi 45degreeN | 45degreeN wrote: | | Quote: | | Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. |
Steven3 that was irrelevant. |
If Matthew 26:52 isn't relevant to this thread what exactly is it relevant to?
God be with us.
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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The Matt26 passage may be relevant to all war but this conversation relates to specific similarities of two separate wars Vietnam and the current Iraqi war.
Including but not limited to how we got into these particular wars: the difficulties in getting out of them also: The various strategies employed by the presidents and the difficulties of fighting in them: The political situations that the civilian population of each country deals with them and why America tend to get itself into wars such as these.
The OP indicated that these two wars were very similar and others have been trying hard to settle that they are not very similar at all.
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | The OP indicated that these two wars were very similar and others have been trying hard to settle that they are not very similar at all. |
Hi 45degreeN
No problem. I will not pretend that I have understood every reference in this thread, mainly because I'm not familiar with US politics (nor in fact UK politics as regards UK involvement in Iraq). Which is why I couldn't contribute further than the little interruption with the words of our Lord Jesus above.
FWIW, from my very superficial view of the political side of things, I would say that you're probably right - there are some similarities. But from the Bible perspective you'd be even more right in that our Lord's comment on "the sword" would apply equally to both Vietnam and Iraq wouldn't it? As would the below:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
As Christians, whatever we may think of the kingdoms of this world, and whatever Bush and Brown are doing (and we are told to pray for kings and governors), there is a standard of individual behaviour set by Christ which applies to masse force - war, just as much as it does individual force - turning the other cheek. At least for countries which are nominally "Christian". That's the only point I was making by posting our Lord's words.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Steven3 wrote | Quote: | As Christians, whatever we may think of the kingdoms of this world, and whatever Bush and Brown are doing (and we are told to pray for kings and governors), there is a standard of individual behavior set by Christ which applies to mass force - war, just as much as it does individual force - turning the other cheek. At least for countries which are nominally "Christian". That's the only point I was making by posting our Lord's words.
God bless
Steven |
Unfortunately I and many others actually lived through the Vietnam era (and are veterans of that war) and are now living through the Iraqi war era also. There might have been lessons we as Americans might have learned from the Vietnam era but it seems we: a) are incapable of learning b)we as a country forget history easily or c) have a tendency toward wars of this sort that we just cant resist.
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | There might have been lessons we as Americans might have learned from the Vietnam era but it seems we: a) are incapable of learning b)we as a country forget history easily or c) have a tendency toward wars of this sort that we just cant resist. |
I was thinking (a) as you seem to want to forget what happened to the Vietnamese, Cambodians... etc... when we pulled out... appeased evil... and walked away without killing it. That seems to be the only lesson we are forgetting.
Unless of course, you still believe the slaughter of 100,000 additional innocent folks is acceptable... 
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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HI 45degreeN | 45degreeN wrote: | Steven3 wrote | Quote: | As Christians, whatever we may think of the kingdoms of this world, and whatever Bush and Brown are doing (and we are told to pray for kings and governors), there is a standard of individual behavior set by Christ which applies to mass force - war, just as much as it does individual force - turning the other cheek. At least for countries which are nominally "Christian". That's the only point I was making by posting our Lord's words.
God bless
Steven |
Unfortunately I and many others actually lived through the Vietnam era (and are veterans of that war) and are now living through the Iraqi war era also. There might have been lessons we as Americans might have learned from the Vietnam era but it seems we: a) are incapable of learning b)we as a country forget history easily or c) have a tendency toward wars of this sort that we just cant resist. |
Mm, from what little I know (was a child during Vietnam, only been there on business) I wouldn't disagree, though I think that's human nature rather than just the US. I wish you luck in changing attitudes, but fundamentally the problem is more deeply rooted than just US (or UK) foreign policy. The US is, and even the UK is, a nominally Christian country. And yet it is the Christianity of Constantine or Stonewall Jackon rather than the Christianity of John 18:36.
One underlying reason why western 'Christian' nations are generally "a) are incapable of learning b), as a country forget history easily or c) have a tendency toward wars of this sort that we just cant resist" is rooted in a relativization of the NT Gospel as being "too idealistic", "alright for Jesus, but not practical in the real world", so inevitably nominally 'Christian' nations will not get many 'good wars' even by man's standards.
To be against the particular stupidities of mediocre wars is reasonable, but to an extent it's only tinkering with the symptoms not the cause.
God be with us
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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As Christians we need to lead others in the ways God teaches us. Divine love doesn't mean we must "like" another person or nation but want what God wants for them. Scripture tells us that we as Christians will be the judge of all nations. But are we there yet? Can we claim this privilege/responsibility?
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | As Christians we need to lead others in the ways God teaches us. Divine love doesn't mean we must "like" another person or nation but want what God wants for them. Scripture tells us that we as Christians will be the judge of all nations. But are we there yet? Can we claim this privilege/responsibility? |
Good post. Just curious which verse you have in mind for Christians will judge all nations. Can think of 2 or 3 very similar, but not sure which one you mean.
God bless
S.
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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1Corinthian 6: | Quote: | 1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. |
That pretty much sums it all up for me
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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