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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3027
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: Christ, 'end' of the Law.....Means.... |
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Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
I thought I'd add a little context here....to better understand that the word end DOES NOT mean terminate, abolish.
In the Greek, the word, 'end' means.....a goal to attain to, accomplish, destination to strive for.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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I've been telling you this for years.
Christ did not abolish the law, He fulfilled it - He met the requirements of the law on our behalf, thus we have no compunction to obey the law in order to gain salvation.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| REVjp wrote: | | I've been telling you this for years. |
 ...like a scratched record... ... |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3027
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I've been telling you this for years.
Christ did not abolish the law, He fulfilled it - He met the requirements of the law on our behalf, thus we have no compunction to obey the law in order to gain salvation. |
That is true....BUT, IF we love Jesus Christ, we will keep all 10 commandments (including the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath) just as Jesus asked us to.
It is the proof that we love HIM.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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The problem is SS, that you do not stop with that simple acknowledgment of the truth.
The truth is that obedience to His commandments are evidence of our love for Him, which comes from Him. We are not required to obey those commandments in order to retain the free gift of salvation imparted unto us by His grace through our faith in Him.
This is the truth which you consistently deny in your heresy of 'losing one's salvation by attending church on sunday', and other such nonsense.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3027
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | The problem is SS, that you do not stop with that simple acknowledgment of the truth. |
And who said God's truth, is ever to stop ?
Truth is progressive, ever unfolding to reveal more and more, never ending as God is infinite, so is His truth infinite, never being exhausted.
No man ever has or ever will understand all the truth the Bible has to offer.
| Quote: |
The truth is that obedience to His commandments are evidence of our love for Him, which comes from Him. We are not required to obey those commandments in order to retain the free gift of salvation imparted unto us by His grace through our faith in Him. |
Salvation, is freedom from committing sin.
Mattherw 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
The person who continues to commit sin is not free....from sin.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
The person who still committs sin has NOT broken free of satan reign over them.
That Bible verse said that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.........BUT, if the person still sins knowningly, the devil is their master, not Jesus.
| Quote: |
This is the truth which you consistently deny in your heresy of 'losing one's salvation by attending church on sunday', and other such nonsense. |
You've yet to understand that the basic theme of the Bible, is God's commandments, and to obey them.
You say Jesus Christ is the theme ?
Where was Jesus mentioned before sin came into the world ?
From Genesis to Revelation God has ALWAYS been trying to get people to keep the commandments.
Jesus came onto the scene ONLY after sin entered the world.
Had the commandments always been kept......where would Jesus come into the picture ?
Jesus Christ was NEVER supposed to have to come to the earth and die on the cross !
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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SS, you have absolutely NO understanding of scripture, or the Gospel. Your heresies would be laughable if they weren't designed to lead people to hell.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi SilverSurfer
Can I correct one misunderstanding - not actually in this thread, cannot find the thread where I meant to make this reply.
Seventh Day Adventists, Seventh Day Church of God, etc. are sincere about the attachment to spiritual values in the 10 Commandments. I appreciate that. But somewhere the implication was made that Christians (like Christadelphians for example) who don't keep the Sabbath are "saying there are only 9 Commandments in the NT", or have "dropped 1 of the 10 Commandments".
I'm sorry but that is a fundamental misunderstanding, because all 10 Commandments are expanded, and raised to a much higher level, in the NT.
e.g.
"Thou shalt not kill" becomes  "Thou shalt not say Raca!"
"Thou shalt not commit adultery" becomes "Thou shalt not look on a woman in lust",
etc.
The 4th Commandment has not been abolished in the NT, it has been fulfilled in Christ, and expanded to cover 7-days a week. Every day is Sabbath now.
"Keep the 7th Day holy" becomes "Keep all 7 days holy"
Do I need to supply the verses that are behind this interpretation? It should be fairly common, I don't believe this understanding of what "fulfill the Law" means is unique to Christadelphians.
Love in God
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3027
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steven3 wrote: | Hi SilverSurfer
Can I correct one misunderstanding - not actually in this thread, cannot find the thread where I meant to make this reply.
Seventh Day Adventists, Seventh Day Church of God, etc. are sincere about the attachment to spiritual values in the 10 Commandments. I appreciate that. But somewhere the implication was made that Christians (like Christadelphians for example) who don't keep the Sabbath are "saying there are only 9 Commandments in the NT", or have "dropped 1 of the 10 Commandments". |
Perhaps they did not study.... Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
I personally, believe what Jesus said.
[quote]I'm sorry
but that is a fundamental misunderstanding, because all 10 Commandments are expanded, and raised to a much higher level, in the NT.
e.g.
"Thou shalt not kill" becomes :arrow: "Thou shalt not say Raca!"
"Thou shalt not commit adultery" becomes :arrow: "Thou shalt not look on a woman in lust",
etc.The OT has examples of the expanded concepts of God's Law also....if a person studied their Bible.
| Quote: |
The 4th Commandment has not been abolished in the NT, it has been fulfilled in Christ, and expanded to cover 7-days a week. Every day is Sabbath now.
"Keep the 7th Day holy" becomes :arrow: "Keep all 7 days holy" |
| Quote: |
Do I need to supply the verses that are behind this interpretation? |
Yes, please show Scriptures where God contradicts HIMSELF.
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
From this I understand that Christ ONLY made one day Holy.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
| Quote: |
It should be fairly common, I don't believe this understanding of what "fulfill the Law" means is unique to Christadelphians.
Love in God
Steven |
Common ?
Since when did God ever do anything that is considered common ?
God has always done the UNcommon and illogical to what mankind believes as common.
The walls of Jericho....
The Flood in Noah's time.....
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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mata
Tadpole
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | The problem is SS, that you do not stop with that simple acknowledgment of the truth. |
And who said God's truth, is ever to stop ?
Truth is progressive, ever unfolding to reveal more and more, never ending as God is infinite, so is His truth infinite, never being exhausted.
No man ever has or ever will understand all the truth the Bible has to offer.
| Quote: |
The truth is that obedience to His commandments are evidence of our love for Him, which comes from Him. We are not required to obey those commandments in order to retain the free gift of salvation imparted unto us by His grace through our faith in Him. |
Salvation, is freedom from committing sin.
Mattherw 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
The person who continues to commit sin is not free....from sin.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
The person who still committs sin has NOT broken free of satan reign over them.
That Bible verse said that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.........BUT, if the person still sins knowningly, the devil is their master, not Jesus.
| Quote: |
This is the truth which you consistently deny in your heresy of 'losing one's salvation by attending church on sunday', and other such nonsense. |
You've yet to understand that the basic theme of the Bible, is God's commandments, and to obey them.
You say Jesus Christ is the theme ?
Where was Jesus mentioned before sin came into the world ?
From Genesis to Revelation God has ALWAYS been trying to get people to keep the commandments.
Jesus came onto the scene ONLY after sin entered the world.
Had the commandments always been kept......where would Jesus come into the picture ?
Jesus Christ was NEVER supposed to have to come to the earth and die on the cross ! |
This makes it sound as if Jesus was just an afterthought, yet we know from scripture that Jesus, the Son and Saviour, was in God's plan from the creation of the world. Not that he pre-existed, or was God, but he was definitely the main plan. John 1:1 references this and Col 1 which is mostly about the new creation but bases the new on the existence of the old.
Mata |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hi SilverSurfer | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Steven3 wrote: | The 4th Commandment has not been abolished in the NT, it has been fulfilled in Christ, and expanded to cover 7-days a week. Every day is Sabbath now.
"Keep the 7th Day holy" becomes "Keep all 7 days holy" |
| Quote: | | Do I need to supply the verses that are behind this interpretation? |
Yes, please show Scriptures where God contradicts HIMSELF. |
Surely you mean where Christ expands on God? | Quote: | Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
From this I understand that Christ ONLY made one day Holy. |
How can you understand that Christ only made one day holy when you're quoting Genesis. Don't you need a NT quote to show what the NT teaches?
Yes, I believe Hebrews 4:3-9, but it's not related to either Saturday (the OT Sabbath) as verse 8 makes crystal clear, nor the whole week (the NT Sabbath), but to the coming kingdom "rest". The whole point is that it is comparing the OT Sabbath to the NT expansion,
| Quote: | | Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. |
Joshua's Sabbath was Saturday
Christ's Sabbath was Sunday-Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday-Friday-Sunday, plus the coming kingdom.
Back to the idea that Christ made Sunday-Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday-Friday into Sabbaths equal with Saturday, consider the parable about pulling a sheep out of a pit. That was banned on the Sabbath (check the verse in the Sanhedrins), yet Jesus said it was okay - and made it a model for all the week. This is why he is Lord of the Sabbath, because now every day is holy to God. We are on Sabbath-time 24/7. Jesus didn't abolish the Sabbath, he abolished the other 6 days, and it's the unholy days you're hanging on to.
Matthew 12:12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Luke 13:15 Then the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it?
John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
What does it mean anyway when someone says they "keep the Sabbath"? They keep the OT-Sabbath, Joshua-Sabbath, the shadow-Sabbath as "holy", and are then "unholy" the other 6 days? That isn't what Jesus wanted. His Sabbath is every day.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3027
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:51 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mata"] | Silver Surfer wrote: |
Jesus Christ was NEVER supposed to have to come to the earth and die on the cross ! |
| Quote: |
This makes it sound as if Jesus was just an afterthought, yet we know from scripture that Jesus, the Son and Saviour, was in God's plan from the creation of the world.
Mata |
Was sin, and its consequences of disease, pain, suffering of every description, a part of God's plan for mankind also ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3027
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Steven3 wrote: | Hi SilverSurfer | Silver Surfer wrote: | Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
From this I understand that Christ ONLY made one day Holy. |
How can you understand that Christ only made one day holy when you're quoting Genesis. Don't you need a NT quote to show what the NT teaches? |
To understand the NT, you NEED the OT.
There are things mentioned in the OT, that are NOT mentioned in the NT, which is neccessary for a person to get into heaven.
Case in point: Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The NT tells us that the sabbath remains, BUT it does not tell us exactly how to observe it, as portions of the OT do.
That is why it is a fatal mistake to say to keep all 7 days of the week Holy, as God said to work 6 days and keep ONLY the 7th day Holy.
| Quote: |
Yes, I believe Hebrews 4:3-9, but it's not related to either Saturday (the OT Sabbath) as verse 8 makes crystal clear, nor the whole week (the NT Sabbath), but to the coming kingdom "rest". The whole point is that it is comparing the OT Sabbath to the NT expansion, |
'Coming Kingdom'.....as mentioned concerning the New Earth......
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
| Quote: | | Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. |
Joshua's Sabbath was Saturday
Christ's Sabbath was Sunday-Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday-Friday-Sunday, plus the coming kingdom.[/quote]
In the following Bible verse, I don't see where Jesus mention any other day besides the one day, the 7th day sabbath......
Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Example #2.) Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.
To me, I see that Jesus treated the 7th day sabbath differently than the other days of the week, do you see that ?
| Quote: |
Back to the idea that Christ made Sunday-Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday-Friday into Sabbaths equal with Saturday, consider the parable about pulling a sheep out of a pit. That was banned on the Sabbath (check the verse in the Sanhedrins), yet Jesus said it was okay - and made it a model for all the week. |
Why are we concerned with what false religious teachers (Sanhedrins), taught ?
| Quote: |
This is why he is Lord of the Sabbath, because now every day is holy to God. We are on Sabbath-time 24/7. Jesus didn't abolish the Sabbath, he abolished the other 6 days, and it's the unholy days you're hanging on to. |
That may sound very religious, but it is still rejecting what Jesus Himself said:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
| Quote: |
Matthew 12:12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” |
Yes, Lawful means to visit the poor on the sabbath day, to visit and help the sick and needy people, on the sabbath day.
| Quote: |
Mark 2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. |
YES !
God made the sabbath day 'for' man, yet man....rejects God's gift of the sabbth day.
| Quote: |
Luke 13:15 Then the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it? |
Jesus was trying to point out that the religious leaders did NOT understand the correct sabbath observance.
| Quote: |
John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” |
Again, the religious leaders did NOT understand.....
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
| Quote: |
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. |
How do you understand this in the light that Paul himself kept the 7th day sabbath ?
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
| Quote: | | What does it mean anyway when someone says they "keep the Sabbath"? |
The true Christian keeps the 7th day sabbath just as Jesus Christ kept it.....as Jesus is the example for a Christian to follow.....
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
| Quote: |
They keep the OT-Sabbath, Joshua-Sabbath, the shadow-Sabbath as "holy", and are then "unholy" the other 6 days? That isn't what Jesus wanted. His Sabbath is every day.
God bless
Steven |
Sabbath, means rest.
If a person rested every single day....then how could a person make a living ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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mata
Tadpole
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | mata wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: |
Jesus Christ was NEVER supposed to have to come to the earth and die on the cross ! |
This makes it sound as if Jesus was just an afterthought, yet we know from scripture that Jesus, the Son and Saviour, was in God's plan from the creation of the world. |
Mata Was sin, and its consequences of disease, pain, suffering of every description, a part of God's plan for mankind also ? |
God is omniscient but not cruel
M |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hi SS | Silver Surfer wrote: | | There are things mentioned in the OT, that are NOT mentioned in the NT, which is neccessary for a person to get into heaven. |
Well, I sincerely hope that I never go to heaven  , apart from the selfish-ness of heaven going, it could also potentially rather lonely seeing as Jesus repeatedly stated that his kingdom will be on earth.... 
But that aside, I'm honestly not aware of anything major in the OT not supported/repeated by the NT. Our foundation is the apostles and prophets, yes, but Paul says "apostles and prophets" (Eph2:20), not "prophets first, then apostles".
| Quote: | | The NT tells us that the sabbath remains |
Not in my ESV it doesn't. Hebrews 4:9 says that "a sabbath" remains, not "the sabbath". There's a reason for that "a".
Again, re new moons, yes sure I'd read the mosaic content of Isaiah 66 as literal if Paul hadn't made his comment on "new moons" to the Colossians. But he did. So he didn't take Is66 literally. Or even if Paul did take Is66 literally (who knows) that could be read literally about the Millenium Age rather than the Church Age (not convinced, just noting it as Christopher John made that point to you about Is66 and pork in another thread).
Again, we all know Heb 4:9 says that "there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" but we need proof that it's the Jewish OT Sabbath. There are four ways of reading this verse
 1. It's basically the same as the Jewish Shabbat. (seems to contradict Christ being Lord of the Sabbath and Paul in Colossians)
2. It's expanded to be 24/7 (my understanding elsewhere, though I recognise one still needs to work 5 days a week, so given Heb4:10 I admit that it isn't a good fit in 4:9)
3. It's talking of the whole millenium as 1000 years in a 7000 year plan (seems to contradict Mark 13:32)
4. It's talking of restoration of the Shabbat in the Kingdom Age. (again, doesn't fit parallels, such as Ezekiels temple kitchens but Hebrews saying no more sacrifice).
None of these options is a slam dunk. We really need a poll thread on this one - actually you could add a poll to the OP since you were Original Poster. But I see it's not relevant to your OP verse. I might do one if I can get Poll to work
Heb4:10 "for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his" could also be applied to all 4 of above,
| Quote: | | To me, I see that Jesus treated the 7th day sabbath differently than the other days of the week, do you see that ? |
Totally. Of course. He was a Jew, of the tribe of Judah, "born under the Law" (Gal.4:4), so for the same reason Jesus could not eat pork. But I wasn't born a Jew, neither were you. | Quote: | | Why are we concerned with what false religious teachers (Sanhedrins), taught ? |
Only for background, because most if not all of Jesus' Sabbath comments are in this context. Point taken. | Quote: | | Quote: | | Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. |
How do you understand this in the light that Paul himself kept the 7th day sabbath ? |
I wasn't aware that he did. Acts 17:2 shows him preaching in Synagogues - it wouldn't have been much use if he'd gone on a Thursday. | Quote: | | Quote: | | What does it mean anyway when someone says they "keep the Sabbath"? |
The true Christian keeps the 7th day sabbath just as Jesus Christ kept it.....as Jesus is the example for a Christian to follow.....
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: |
Okay, but what is there there that doesn't need doing 24/7?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | They keep the OT-Sabbath, Joshua-Sabbath, the shadow-Sabbath as "holy", and are then "unholy" the other 6 days? That isn't what Jesus wanted. His Sabbath is every day. |
Sabbath, means rest. If a person rested every single day....then how could a person make a living ? |
True. I'm aware that Hebrew שבת, shabbāt, means rest. But I'm not convinced that's what characterizes the Christian keeping of the upgraded 10 Commandments. The last thing a Christian should be doing at the weekend is putting his feet up. And a retired Christian literally can serve 24/7.
The basic point is this If "thou shalt not kill" has been upgraded to "thou shalt not say Raca", and all other 9 Commandments are upgraded, then the 4th Commandment should have been upgraded too. How?
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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