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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| medbh4805 wrote: |
I think accounts of women in the bible are down to the way society was structured at that time; you just have to look at the way women were treated in the book of Genesis, for example, Eve - manipulating, deceitful, and to be punished by God. I'm sure if God was to allow men to be prophets, he would also allow women to be, but if the religious leaders gave them credit by including them in the Bible, it would mean allowing them some power, which could take it away from them!
Something to bear in mind when reading the books of the New testament, not all his disciples shared Jesus' views on women. |
Hi medbh4805,
Actually you raise a good point here. Here is an example of society structure prior to the giving of the Law of Moses:
| The Book called "Secrets Of Time" wrote: | | Exodus 6:20 tells us that Moses’ mother, Jochebed, was Amram’s father’s sister. That is, she was the daughter of Levi, and Kohath was her brother. Thus, Amram married his aunt. This was prior to the prohibition of such marriages (Lev. 18:12). |
The thing that is different about your point though is that it works in the opposite way: The (religious) society structure started out very prejudice against woman and finishes with Paul in this NT verse admonishing equality:
| Quote: | | There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28 |
I have not yet found the law forbidding woman to speak or prophesy in the church(called out ones).
Hmmm, maybe these verses have a deeper meaning, like everything else in scripture? 
Cheers
Bitterlily |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| medbh4805 wrote: |
Something to bear in mind when reading the books of the New testament, not all his disciples shared Jesus' views on women. |
Hey medbh4805,
I just wanted to clarify with you what you meant by "Jesus views on women". It can be taken one of two ways and I just want to clarify which way you were intending it. Do you view Jesus views as better toward woman or the disciples. The reason I ask is that most of the negative views woman currently face in the church are due to the Apostle Paul's words and not Jesus' words at all. I wanted to be sure that was what you meant.
Cheers
Bitterlily |
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medbh4805
Sea Monkey
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 12
Location: The Greatest Place on Earth, aka Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: |
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We are all one in Jesus Christ, because God transcends(the right word?) gender and race.
Christians at that time didn't have much power, with the Romans and all that buisness, but once the church starts to gain power with the Edict of Milan and Pope becoming powerful in Rome, we begin to see the institutionalised misogyny begin to set in.
I was nearly given detention in RE for suggesting that Gospel of Mary Magdalene deserved to be included in the Bible...I kept thinking of the Song of Songs when I read it... |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| lily wrote: | The Apostle Paul said:
Quote:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34
Could someone here point me to that Law he speaks of. |
This has certainly been a stumper, but some little time ago I realized that what Paul was referring to was not a specific law stating that women keep silent, but rather the law speaking of being under obedience. All in the way you read it. That is what he is referring to.
"but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: |
All in the way you read it. That is what he is referring to.
"but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."
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Thanks for that Mojo,
Well can i ask this question then, can someone point me to the law which states woman are commanded to be under obedience?
Thanks
Bitterlily |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1093
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Lily said: | Quote: | Just Curious!
The Apostle Paul said:
Quote:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34
Could someone here point me to that Law he speaks of. |
I have asked that question several times myself and even presented possibilities in my post about the apostle Paul but have only gotten answers that kind of 'dance around' the 'as also saith the law' statement.
Much Love, Luv  |
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medbh4805
Sea Monkey
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 12
Location: The Greatest Place on Earth, aka Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: |
Hey medbh4805,
I just wanted to clarify with you what you meant by "Jesus views on women". It can be taken one of two ways and I just want to clarify which way you were intending it. Do you view Jesus views as better toward woman or the disciples. The reason I ask is that most of the negative views woman currently face in the church are due to the Apostle Paul's words and not Jesus' words at all. I wanted to be sure that was what you meant.
Cheers
Bitterlily |
I meant that the certain disciples were not as open-minded as Jesus was when it came to women. If you read the Gospel of Luke, it is trying to show that Jesus came for all people, (*including*) women, whereas Paul would have us all wearing veils...anyway, I would think as Christians that we would follow Jesus, and not Paul, whose writings, for me, seem a bit self-righteous....
And Paul wasn't an Apostle. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Hi medbh4805,
| medbh4805 wrote: |
I meant that the certain disciples were not as open-minded as Jesus was when it came to women. If you read the Gospel of Luke, it is trying to show that Jesus came for all people, (*including*) women, whereas Paul would have us all wearing veils...anyway, I would think as Christians that we would follow Jesus, and not Paul, whose writings, for me, seem a bit self-righteous....
And Paul wasn't an Apostle. |
Hi medbh4805,
I sympathize with you regarding Paul's epistles, I have struggled with them as well in the past. I don't anymore because I believe much of his writings are veiled. In other words I believe they had greater meaning that could only be unveiled by being like the noble Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) who searched the scriptures(OT) daily to see whether what Paul was saying was true.
My understanding is far from perfect but thought you would appreciate what I have found so far. But before I start I want to make it very clear to everyone who reads this that I am absolutely certain from scripture that Paul was an Apostle of Jesus. I will provide the scriptural evidence for this later.
King David and a multitude of men in 2 Samuel 15:31 were obviously unaware that:
| Quote: | | Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 1Co 11:4 |
Because as you will see, they all had their heads covered during prayer:
| Quote: | | And David went up by the ascent of mount Olivet, and wept as he went up, and had his head covered, and he went barefoot: and all the people that was with him covered every man his head, and they went up, weeping as they went up. And one told David, saying, Ahithophel is among the conspirators with Absalom. And David said, O LORD, I pray thee, turn the counsel of Ahithophel into foolishness. 2Sa 15:30-31 |
Now before you go jumping to conclusions you need to ask this question: "Why would King David (and other men) have had their heads covered?" Because Christ (man's head) had not yet been revealed. So their head(Christ) was veiled (hidden). But Jesus' resurrection changed this practise. In other words Jesus (their head) had been unveiled(revealed). This explains why Paul said:
| Quote: | | Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 1Co 11:4 |
Do you see why? Because for a man to cover his head was the same as saying Christ had not been revealed. This is why the Jews still to this day cover their heads during prayer because to them Christ has not been revealed.
A wee side track here, an interesting point to note in that story of David is that I was shown by another Berean how this story parallels that of Christ's betrayal by Judas(Ahithophel) to the Jews(David's son Absalom).
So what about woman? Why, when there is no OT Law to the description, does Paul now say:
| Quote: | | But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1Co 11:5 |
The following verses seem to give us the clue:
| Quote: | | For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Eph 5:23-25 |
I could be wrong but it sounds to me like Paul is trying to draw a parallel here:
Husband = Christ
Wife = Church
Here is an example of how this parralel looks when applied to other scriptures:
| Quote: | | For this cause shall a man(Christ) leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife(Church), and they two shall be one flesh(One Body). Eph 5:31 & Gen 2:24 |
If I am right in this than in keeping with the pattern of the man's head(Christ) being covered(hidden) and then later uncovered (revealed), it would seem that Paul is trying to imply that the Church's(Wife)Head is HIDDEN(covered).
Paul seems to support this idea later in the same chapter when he says:
| Quote: | | This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Eph 5:32 |
This is far as I have studied this. All I can say is that I am left with the impression that Paul's teaching about woman being veiled has a greater significance. Is it as simple as the glory of Jesus' church has not yet been revealed? I don't know, but that could be it.
One last thing to note is that after all this discussion about woman covering their heads Paul says:
| Quote: | | But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. 1Co 11:16 |
Why would Paul say this? Maybe because there is more to this than meets the eye.
I'll save the post regarding Paul as an Apostle for another time.
With Love
Bitterlily |
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holly102869
Show Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 270
Location: Central, Florida USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: |
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First, I want to say something then tell a story. I believe God talks to all people, man and woman. the Question to you is Do we listen?
When I was nineteen and going through a bad period in my life. I was drinking and partying. And as most young people thought nothing bad would ever happen to me.
One night I was driving into Nashville on my way home and along the way as the old saying goes my life flashed before my eyes. At that monent I knew that I was going to be in a car wreck and it would be at night in the rain. I thought I would die in this wreck. The next night some of my friends and I went off into a ditch and I laughed and thought there it was my big wreck. Not knowing that was just the beginning. Later I was going to stay where I was but, I wanted to sleep and the party was not stopping. I asked the one sober person to take me home. I went out and got into the car and dozed off. I woke as we were going down the road to find someone else driving who had had more to drink than me. He assured me if I did not like his driving he would let me drive. As we went down the road he was getting very close to the car infront of us. I screamed at the top of my lungs for him to stop but, it was like he was in a trance. We hit the car and I was knocked out. The car flipped 3 times and hit a rock inbankment. When I came to the first thing I thought was Its raining as I looked around and realized I was in the car and it could not be rain. It was blood dripping off my face. When I got out of the car and looked around to see where I was I realized that I was in the same spot as the night before when my life flashed before my eyes. I knew at that moment God had tried to warn me of what my behavior would do to me but , I didn't listen. This is not the only time this has happened to me. My Grandmothers death and a accident my mother was in. The moment my Father Died.
I have known why people have come into my life. What God wanted me to do to help that person or if they were to help me. I feel that we all have this ability to hear God and want he wants to learn or do and warnings to help us understand what is going to happen to prepare us on our journey. We have to open ourselves completely to him and he will guide us.
Holly |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: |
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lily, that was an excellent post. I do believe you are on the right path.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Luk 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
1Pe 1:3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed
1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.
Psa 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
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medbh4805
Sea Monkey
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 12
Location: The Greatest Place on Earth, aka Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Bitterlily
I would still say that Paul was certainly not an Apostle, due to the fact he started his work c50 years after the death of Christ. He is also never mentioned in the Gospels, whereas the 12 Apostles are named clearly in Luke, and a description of the twelve apostles and Jesus at last the supper is used in all of the Gospels.
Thank you for a meaningful interpretaton of the epistles, the sponge soaks it all up...
I know this is a bit off-topic, but would you say that that scripture justifies the requests in some churches that women wear hats  |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1093
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! BitterLily; I was impressed with your post. I'm looking at a couple of things in a whole new light. Very insightful and worth taking the time to read.
Holly; I thought of Paul when I read your post. He needed a little prompting/urging before he would listen too. It takes a little more convincing with some of us.
I have also had dreams and visions that came to pass. Sometimes I think it's a curse. Other times, I think perhaps it's a gift. Either way, sometimes it is a little unnerving maybe even a little eerie.
Medbh4805 said: | Quote: | Thank you for a meaningful interpretaton of the epistles, the sponge soaks it all up...
I know this is a bit off-topic, but would you say that that scripture justifies the requests in some churches that women wear hats |
Actually that is a good question and I believe MoJo answered that in her post when she quoted the following scripture: | Quote: | | 1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering. |
As for your question/conclusion about whether Paul was an apostle, I will offer my thoughts on this:
I believe Paul was an apostle. Maybe not one of the original 12 but an apostle none the less. I believe Paul was was chosen to preach the word of God. I believe he took the place of the fallen apostle Judas Iscariot. Apostle Paul also fulfills the definition of being an apostle by virtue of being chosen to preside over and lead the church. I think the number 12 in the bible is significant as this number is talked about a great deal in the bible. 12 tribes, 12 thrones, Jesus was 12 years old when he was found by his frantic mother 'going about his fathers business' in the temple. Let's not forget about the references in Revelations to the 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes. Who do you think is being referred to in the following verses? Could it be the 12 apostles? Would Judas who was referred to as a devil be among the twelve?
Matt 19:
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Just thinking things through to a logical conclusion...
Much Love, Luv 
Last edited by luvnlife on Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:48 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Of course Paul was an apostle. He was chosen and appointed directly by Jesus, just like the others.
Did you know there were actually thirteen tribes of Israel?
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1093
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry about the weird display on my last post.... I could not get the 'font size' to behave. 
Luv |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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sometimes there's gremlins.
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