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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: IF GOD COULD SAVE EVERYONE - WOULD HE? |
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Just thought I'd share a different perspective of the Bible that you may never have heard before.
Love To All
Bitterlily
| Quote: | IF GOD COULD SAVE EVERYONE - WOULD HE?
What is God’s Will?
The idea that God cannot do something, or that God is limited in His ability, is fairly common among Christians. Many think that God’s ability to act is limited by man’s “free will.” People often think that God either cannot override man’s will or that He is incapable of making man change his will to conform to the will of God.
So what is it that prevents God from saving all mankind? 2 Peter 3:9 says, that He is not willing that any should be lost, or perish. Thus, if any are lost, it is not because it is the will of God.
The Apostle Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:4 that God “will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” This, too, defines the will of God for all men.
The problem is that evil men seem to thwart God’s will, and God seems to be powerless to do anything about it. How powerful is God, anyway?
The Creator Owns All Things
The first verse in the Bible establishes that God is the Creator of all things. Most people in the world believe this, but few people understand what this implies. It means that God OWNS all things by right of creation.
This is why God told Moses in Lev. 25:23, “The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is Mine.” In other words, under Bible law, God holds the right of eminent domain.
God gave land inheritances to the families of Israel in the old land of Canaan and told them that they did not have the right to sell their property in perpetuity. If they incurred a debt, they could sell it until the Year of Jubilee, which occurred every 49 years (Lev. 25:8). This meant that a family could not lose their inheritance for more than a generation. It ensured that every citizen would have roots in the land.
The land belonged to God, so no man had the right to lose it forever. He was only capable, by his own will, to “lose” it temporarily, because that was the extent of his authority.
Now consider the fact that God created all men, both good and bad. In fact, He formed man of the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:7). God used building material that He created—and therefore owned. Does this not mean that God owns all men as well as all material things in the universe?
God is Responsible for All Creation
In the divine laws of liability God lays down the principle that a man is responsible for that which he owns. For example, if a farmer digs a well and neglects to take basic safety precautions and cover the pit, and if a neighbor’s ox falls into that pit and is killed, the owner of the pit is liable and must pay damages to his neighbor (Ex. 21:33).
Again, if a man lights a fire and it gets out of hand and burns the neighbor’s field, the man who lit the fire is liable, because he created the fire and therefore is its owner (Ex. 22:6). These are basic liability laws that define the will of God in areas of justice and responsibility between men.
This principle, when applied to the big picture, shows us that God is responsible for all of His creation—even for the bad things that happen. God is ultimately liable for all the evil that has occurred in the world. One cannot blame the devil, because the devil created nothing and owns nothing. One cannot ultimately blame bad men either, because the bad men did not create themselves.
In the case of the ox falling into the uncovered pit, the one who dug it cannot say in his defense, “That stupid ox fell into the pit by his own free will.” Such an argument makes no difference in the divine court. The only relevant fact in the case is that the one who dug the pit is responsible for it.
In the case of Adam and Eve, whether these are actual people or just prototype human beings, the Bible story makes it clear that God created them. The “tree” of the knowledge of good and evil, however men may interpret the story, provided the temptation, and the “serpent” was the tempter. God created both the tree and the serpent.
That means God, in effect, “dug a pit” and left it uncovered. That is, Adam and Eve—like the stupid ox—were given willful opportunity to stay away from the uncovered pit or not. Of course, man “fell” into the pit and died (became mortal).
So who is legally liable in the divine court? Well, God is, of course. Adam and Eve did not dig the pit, nor did they create the serpent. They were just too stupid to stay away from the pit. They fell, and they died. God’s own law, then, demanded that the Owner of the pit pay fully for the death of the ox (Ex. 21:34).
In other words, God set up the law in such a way that He would make Himself liable for the fall of Adam and Eve. Did God know what He was doing? Of course He did. He knew from the beginning that the law would demand that He—the Creator and Owner of all—would have to pay the full penalty for sin.
That is why Jesus came to earth to pay the full penalty for sin. First of all, He loved His creation enough to do this (John 3:16). Secondly, He made it mandatory by law that He would have to do this. In that sense, the law was prophetic. It prophesied that God would have to be born as a man in order to be capable of dying for the sin of the world.
The Laws of Redemption
The land could not be sold in perpetuity, but there were times when men incurred debts that they could not pay. Jesus told a parable about this in Matt. 18:23-35. He told of a man who owed “ten thousand talents,” which today would be about $150 million. Verse 25 says that because he could not pay the debt, he and his wife and children had to be sold as bondservants in order to make payment on the debt.
Under biblical law, men were bondservants until their debts were paid or until the Year of Jubilee, when all debts were cancelled by grace. Bondservants were forced by law to work for their masters, but they also had rights. Slavery itself as practiced in most parts of the world was unlawful under biblical law.
A man and his family who had become bond-servants because of debt were supposed to work for their masters until the debt was paid. Then they were set free. But there was another provision. The bondservant could be redeemed by a relative.
Lev. 25:47-55 tells of the laws of redemption. It says that a relative has the right of redemption, as long as he has enough money to pay the debt of his relative. In other words, the bondservant’s master does not have a choice in the matter. The master only has the choice if the potential redeemer is a mere friend of the bondservant. If a friend came to negotiate a deal, the choice would ultimately fall to the master, not to the friend of the bondservant. Why? Because the right of redemption is given only to a relative.
Jesus is the Redeemer
The House of Israel had fallen into sin and thereby had incurred a huge debt. (All sin is reckoned as a debt in the Bible.) God was the Judge who had sold them as bondservants to the nation of Babylon. He did this because they had refused to follow His law in this matter. The people refused to set their bondservants free (Jer. 34:13-17).
The first nation to possess Judah as a bondservant was Babylon. The debt note was later purchased by Persia, then Greece, and finally by Rome. In the days of Jesus, Rome held the debt note of Judah, or Judea.
The Bible says in Heb. 2:11-17 that Jesus Christ did not come to earth by taking the form of an angel. He came rather as a man, taking upon Himself the seed of Abraham in order to qualify as a relative to Israel and Judah. This gave Jesus the right of redemption.
But further, the same passage tells us that Jesus Christ came in “flesh and blood,” in order to qualify as a relative to all men. This gave Jesus the right of redemption for all men all the way back to Adam.
For this reason, the apostle John tells us in his letter, 1 John 2:2, “He has covered our sins, and not for ours only, but also those of the whole world.” Jesus gave His very life for the sins of the whole world. He paid the full penalty for every sin ever committed since Adam. Only His very life could pay the full debt for all mankind.
By the divine law, Jesus Christ came to redeem the whole earth and all of mankind. Those are lofty goals, but was He capable of making such a huge payment? The Bible makes it clear that His blood was worth far more than the entire debt of the world from the beginning. So, yes, Jesus Christ was certainly “rich enough” to make such a purchase.
The next question is this: Did Jesus have the right of redemption? Suppose the one holding the debt note for the world preferred not to sell? The Bible makes it clear that Jesus was a near relative, both to Israel and to all flesh and blood. This gave Jesus Christ the right of redemption. The law was on His side. The slave master of the earth had no choice in the matter.
The final question is this: If God, through Jesus Christ, could redeem all mankind, would he, in fact, do it? This is really a question of how much He loves His creation. If He were an angry God that preferred to destroy the creation, then one might doubt that He really would redeem all of mankind. But the Bible says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have ever-lasting life” (John 3:16).
Thus, we see that the law gave Jesus Christ the right of redemption; He had enough “money” and more to pay the full redemption price; and He certainly had the motive to do so.
So, yes, God would indeed save all mankind if He could. He is not only capable of doing it, but He has actually done it.
What is Required of us?
There are many people today and throughout history who have not wanted to be redeemed by Jesus Christ, usually because they did not really understand their need of redemption or did not have faith that He could really set them free. What about these people? Will they benefit from Jesus’ redemption payment in spite of their unbelief? Yes, but not immediately. All will be held accountable for their actions, and every judgment will fit the crime.
Here is how it works. The law of redemption says that those who agree to be redeemed by their relative must serve their redeemer (Lev. 25:53). In other words, those who are redeemed are not set free to do their own pleasure. The redeemer has purchased their debt note, and therefore, they are still bondservants—but now they are bondservants of One who loves them and will treat them right.
The apostle Paul puts it this way in Rom. 6:18, “Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.” He continues, saying, “when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness; but now you are set free from sin and have become servants of God.”
A person set free from sin does not mean that he suddenly becomes perfectly sinless. Paul is referring to sin as the old slave master. When we worked for the old slave master, who told us to sin, we were free from God and His righteousness. Conversely, when God purchased us through Jesus Christ, we are no longer bound to do what sin tells us to do, and we are free to do what is right.
Paul calls himself “a bondservant of Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:1), because he understood the laws of redemption. That is why he told the Christians in Rome that Christ’s redemption did not mean they were free to continue in sin. They were only free from the old slave master who, in the past, had commanded them to sin.
But what about those who refuse to accept the provision God has made for us to be redeemed? The law says in Lev. 25:54 that “even if he is not redeemed in these years, he is still to go free in the year of Jubilee, both he and his children with him.”
The old Hebrew calendar divided time into periods of seven days and seven years. A Jubilee cycle was a period of 49 years. Then ten days into the 50th year a trumpet was blown to signal the day of Jubilee. This was the day that all debts were cancelled, and every man was to return to his inheritance if he had lost it any time during the previous 49 years.
Of course, this was only applicable to those who had been unable to work long enough to pay off their debt. It was also applicable only to those who did not have a redeemer—or if people had not accepted the redemption of a willing relative. Perhaps they did not trust him or know him well enough to trust his motives. Or perhaps they just thought that his commands would be too rigorous. Whatever their reasons, even if they have not availed themselves of the redemption of Christ in this age, they will still go free in the year of Jubilee. There is a limit on how much judgment and discipline that God dispenses upon His children.
The time to be redeemed was an absolute maximum of 49 years from one Jubilee to another. With God, there is no such thing as never-ending punishment. The Bible verses that are usually quoted to prove never-ending punishment are actually mistranslations of the original text.
The word for “eternal” and “everlasting” is the Greek word, aeonian, which means “pertaining to an eon (age).” In other words, God’s final judgments pertain to a specific age in the future that eventually will end with the great Creation Jubilee, when all judgment ceases, and all men are brought fully into the glory of God, even as He promised by covenant.
Many people throughout history have not known of Jesus’ redemption payment. Others have rejected His redemption because they were misinformed about Him. Others preferred to fulfill the commands of their old slave master, sin, and did not want to be set free. Whatever the reason, many people have not availed themselves of Jesus’ redemptive work.
So what is to happen to them?
The Day of Judgment
The Bible speaks of a final day of judgment where all men will stand before the Great White Throne (Rev. 15:11-15). Here is where God will foreclose on all debts from the beginning. Here is where all men will be held accountable for their actions that they did in their life on earth.
The Bible speaks of this judgment in terms of “fire.” Some think this “fire” is a literal torture pit. It is not. The divine law never once dispenses torture as a judgment for any sin.
Deut. 4:12 tells us that God manifests Himself as a fire. In the New Testament, we read in Heb. 12:29 that God Himself is a consuming fire. This simply means that the presence of God will consume whatever is not good. Further, His judgments are designed to correct men, not to destroy them. They are designed to restore the lawful order, so that whatever men have done to violate the rights of others will be righted.
The law’s purpose is to obtain justice for the wronged and forgiveness for the sinner who wronged those other people.
The divine law itself is the “lake of fire.” Moses tells us in Deut. 33:2 that the law is a “fiery law” in His hand.
Daniel 7:9 also pictures that final throne of God. He says that the throne itself is a fire, out of which comes a “fiery stream” that judges all men. It is simply a metaphoric way of saying that God’s fiery law will judge all men. But to know the nature of that fire, one must study the divine law itself. And not once does the divine law prescribe torture for any sin.
Thus, the “lake of fire” in the Bible is never taken as literally as some have interpreted it.
Death (Mortality) is the Penalty for Sin
From the beginning, Moses wrote that the penalty for sin was death, saying in Deut. 30:15 and 16, “I am setting in front of you today life and prosperity, death and adversity, in that I command you to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, statutes, and judgments, that you may live and multiply.”
He was telling the people that to violate God’s laws was the way of death. In the New Testament, the apostle Paul put it this way in Rom. 6:23, “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.” There was no judgment of God’s law that even implied torture in a literal fire for any sin. The penalty was merely death.
Jesus Christ came to pay the full penalty for our sin and for the sin of the whole world. This did not mean that Jesus would have to burn in the pit of hell. Not even for a moment—much less for eternity! He paid the full penalty for sin by dying on the cross, not by burning for eternity. If never-ending torture in hell were really the penalty for sin, then Jesus would still be there! Yet we find that Jesus was only required to be dead for three days.
But God is not so unjust as to torture people for disobeying Him. The nature of the “fire” is defined by the divine law itself, and the duration of the judgment is limited by the law of Jubilee.
Because of Adam’s sin, all men have become mortal. That in itself is a judgment for sin. But the final judgment is the “lake of fire, which is the second death” (Rev. 20:14). This type of death is of a different sort. It speaks of the future age when the unbelievers who did not avail themselves of Jesus’ offer of redemption will remain mortal and will have to learn right and wrong as servants of God.
In the final analysis, the law says that if a man cannot pay a debt (which is incurred by sin), he is to work as a bondservant to pay the debt. If the debt is too great to be paid, he must work until the year of Jubilee sets him free.
The unbelievers at the Great White Throne will be sentenced to work as bondservants until the final Jubilee sets them free. The purpose of this is not so that their masters can act like tyrants over a bunch of slaves. The purpose is given in Isaiah 26:9, where the prophet says, “When God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
In other words, the purpose of putting bond-servants under masters is so that the sinners of the earth may learn the will of God and learn to follow Christ. Their “masters” will teach them and train them in the laws of God. What a happy time!
For this reason Psalm 130:4 says, “There is forgiveness with Thee [God], in order that You may be respected.” We respect those who have the ability to forgive, not those who refuse to forgive after a certain deadline. God has often been presented as One who either will not or cannot forgive sin, once a man has completed his life on earth. It is no wonder so many have no respect for God. But I say that God has been misrepresented.
When the time comes that God rules the earth through Jesus Christ and the “Sons of God,” the nations will rejoice. Finally, there will be true justice and mercy in the courts. Psalm 67:4 says, “O let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for You will judge the nations upon earth.”
Psalm 72:11 says, “Yes, all kings shall bow down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.” Later, this same psalm says, “men shall be blessed in Him; all nations shall call Him blessed. Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who does only wondrous things; and blessed be His glorious name forever; and let the whole earth be filled with His glory.”
Psalm 86:9 and 10 says, “All nations that You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord, and will glorify Your name. For You are great and do wonderful things. You alone are God.”
The Final Outcome of God’s Will
In Gen. 9:9-17 God made a covenant (or contract) with the whole earth. It was a covenant that said He would never again destroy the earth. Many today mistakenly think that the earth is soon going to be destroyed, either by men or by God. This is not true. It may look like disaster is coming, but God has promised to prevent it.
This is the first covenant that God made with anyone. The first time that the word “covenant” is used in the Bible is found here in Gen. 9:9. At earlier times, God made promises, not covenants.
Years later, in the story of how God brought Israel out of Egypt, we find that the Israelites were rather stubborn and disobedient to God, and they came near to stoning Moses more than once. Finally, after ten examples of direct disobedience, God told Moses in Num. 14:12, “I’m just going to destroy the whole nation and start over with you and your children.”
This was, of course, just a test, for God knew He would not do this. So did Moses. That is why Moses reminded God of His promise to Israel. He also said in Num. 14:15 and 16 that if He were to destroy the people, it would be admitting that He was not powerful enough to do what He had said He would do. The people of the other nations would say that it was because He “was not able to bring this people into the land which He promised them by oath.”
Here is the crux of the matter. Was God really able to fulfill His intent? Could His will be thwarted by man’s will? Is man’s free will more powerful than God’s sovereign will?
Nowadays, many people would say that God could not be blamed for the refusal of the people to be obedient to Him. But that is not the issue. The fact is, if God was unable to make Israel obedient, then God would be perceived as a failure. It is much like a disobedient child. If the parent is unable to turn the child into a productive citizen, then it is ultimately the responsibility of the parent, not of the child. The child is not the one in authority. The authority figure is the one who is responsible for those under him or her.
So God tempted Moses to see if he would take the bait. But Moses had no such ambitions to make his own family the chosen people. Moses then challenged God in an extraordinary manner, telling Him that the nations would think God is not able to perform His will—that man’s will was stronger than God’s will.
God’s response was to tell Moses in Num. 14:21, “as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.”
Not only was God able to bring this one nation into the land God had promised, but He was also able to fill the whole earth with His glory. In other words, man may temporarily remain in bondage as a slave to sin, but ultimately, God’s will is that the whole earth would be filled with His glory. God’s will is to save all men (1 Tim. 2:4). There is nothing and no one on earth that can prevent this from taking place. Either men will consent to be redeemed in this age, or they will do so after the final judgment at the Great White Throne.
One may do this the easy way or the hard way. But either way, God is God, and His will shall ultimately prevail. By the time of the final Jubilee, when He sets all men free, they will be filled with His glory. The prophet echoes this verse in Hab. 2:14, saying that, “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”
How much of the sea is covered by water? One hundred percent of it.
How much of the earth will be covered by the knowledge of the Lord? One hundred percent.
That is how the prophet interpreted what God said to Moses. It means that all men will be saved, and God’s presence will fill the entire earth. Keep in mind that men were made with the dust of the ground. God intends to fill the whole earth, which includes all of humanity.
God’s Promise to All
In Isaiah 45:23 God says, “I have sworn by Myself [by my own name] . . . that unto Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance to Me.”
This is quoted by the apostle Paul in Phil. 2:10, 11, saying, “ at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
The question is this: Is God able to fulfill this oath, or is it an idle boast?
Col. 1:16 tells us that “by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible . . . all things were created by Him and for Him.”
Then a few verses later in verse 20, we read that Jesus Christ, by His death on the cross, “has reconciled all things unto Himself . . . whether they are things in earth or things in heaven.”
In other words, Paul’s use of the term “all things” really does mean all things. He not only created all things, but He also has reconciled all things to Himself. His death on the cross was not merely effective for a few, but for the whole of creation. It is not slated for destruction, but to house the glory of God.
Paul speaks again in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 of the time when all men will be raised from the dead for judgment and to receive the rewards due them. Paul says that Jesus Christ must reign over the earth until all enemies have been subdued—that is, until no one disagrees with Him and His divine law. Everyone will ultimately come into agreement that God really is a good and a just God. To know Him is to love Him.
Then Paul says that the final enemy to be destroyed is death. Only then will mankind be able to enjoy fully the presence of God. Only then will all the earth be full of His glory.
Paul says in verse 28 that “God will be all in all.” His full presence will not be in just a few people, nor will He dispense just a little of His glory in all men. Rather, His full glory will radiate out of all men.
That is the plan. And God is indeed able to perform His will. Many are now unwilling to go along with the plan, because of ignorance, for if they knew the glory that God had prepared for them, they would not hesitate to avail themselves of the redemption that Jesus has provided by His death on the cross.
We close with John’s vision in Rev. 5:13, “and every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and all that are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor, and glory, and power be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb [Jesus] for the ages of the ages’.”
This is a picture of the goal of history and the divine plan for His creation. No one will be grumbling that a tyrant has come to power and ought to be overthrown. All will know the love that God has for them and for all mankind. It is a happy scene. There are no tortured screams coming from an imagined pit of hell. God really is able to save all mankind—and He intends to do it.
Written by Stephen E. Jones |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5046
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Bitterlily honey, this is nothing new! Some call it UR, some call it Universal Salvation!
They believe that everybody will be saved! They will never make me believe that! 
Last edited by Nobby on Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | Bitterlily honey, this is nothing new! Some call it UR, some call it Universal Salvation! |
Hi Nobby,
I sense pity in your voice. I'm okay really.
No seriously, I am very aware of the label "Universal Salvation" but what honestly has giving it a label got anything to do with the price of fish? 
| Nobby wrote: | | They believe that everybody will be saved! They will never make me believe that! |
Wow, that's a pretty strong statement there Nobby. Do you mean to tell me that if someone was to present a Biblical truth different to what you currently believe that you would not even examine it in the scriptures to see whether those things being said are true?
I was neither born nor have I attended a "Universal Salvation" church. Upon my conversion I was led of the Lord to study the scriptures alone. No Study group, no Tele-evangilists, no church. Just me and the scriptures. As far as I knew, no one else was hearing the scriptures the same way I did (not even my mum who was often horrified by statements I made about scripture), so I kept it to myself to avoid harassment and ridicule. But after a few years of study I began reading other christian's writings on the internet. I examined each thing they said with a fine tooth comb, searching the scriptures they quoted to present their position. What I learned through this process was that alot of christians have some good bread to eat, but somewhere amongst that good bread I would always discover hidden leaven (traditions of man). So I would purge it out of my belief system as we were instructed to do. By the time I had finished this process, my belief system looked nothing like it did in the beginning (I was raised Catholic remember). If you and others want to call this "Universal Salvation" that is okay with me. At least no one can accuse me of going to the Bible with preconcieved ideas (of mine or mans) and only being interested in making my views fit the scriptures while overlooking those that don't.
And might I say, I am more than happy to have you and others show me the leaven hiding in this bread, I would be more than glad to rid myself of it. The question is, are you willing to take the time to search it out and enlighten this poor sister of yours?
One last thing before I go, Jesus said:
| Quote: | | ...That man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word of God.Luk 4:4 |
This has always been my goal, to live by every Word of God, including the Living Word Jesus, and the written word from Genesis to Revelations. And I would have to say that the UV perspective is closer to acchieving this than any other belief system I have ever examined.
Sincerely
Bitterlily |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bitterlilly---------
I didn't know what we believe had a name either till I came here.I don't mind it though.Universalist has a nice ring to it.
much love---------knuckle |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3190
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: |
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The problem I find with a US veiwpoint is that it sounds good because the scriptures which would oppose this view are never addressed in the same post. I daresay I could come up with a post full of scriptures which would say the opposite.
One of the questions would be, did Jesus redeem everyone and even if he did, is he obligated to give eternal life to everyone? The scriptures plainly say he can do what he wants with his own.
Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Here are two verses which say who he laid down his life for. Are all men who ever lived his sheep?
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
again the qualification; if any man enter in.
Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Psa 100:4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, [and] into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, [and] bless his name.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
This **is** saying that both the sheep **and** the goats belong to him. But what is the fate of the goats?
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Now, Jesus is the door and is standing at the door. We can only enter in through him.
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Jhn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi MoJo-------
Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
much love-----------knuckle |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | Hi MoJo-------
Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
much love-----------knuckle |
Hi Knuckles,
Thanks for answering that for me knuckles, I was busy on another post and I have to go to bed now. I suppose you're right Universal doesn't sound so bad.
Sorry Mojo, I am exhausted so I'll read over your post more thoroughly tomorrow.
Love to All
Good Night
Bitterlily |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3190
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | | Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." |
Since "chastening" **eonian** is made in direct contrast to life **eonian** then are you suggesting that life **eonian** does not mean forever, but only for a certain duration as chastening eonian is for the same duration?
if you interpret the same word eonian to mean an age which has an end, you must apply this same reasoning to life eonian.
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mojo----------
all the statement does is differentiate between where two groups will be during a given time period.
It is not speaking of immortality.
much love----------knuckle |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| bitterlily wrote: |
And might I say, I am more than happy to have you and others show me the leaven hiding in this bread, I would be more than glad to rid myself of it. The question is, are you?
Sincerely
Bitterlily |
Bitterlily,
You can only make that statement because... you are right!smile
Only those in the right attitude of Love can make that statement: it is the foundation of being right while willing to shown as wrong.
THose not in that right attitude make the opposite statement: I am right and don't want to be shown as wrong.
Here is a letter, nearly 220 years old, that will inspire you to know that how you think is still more important than what you think.
Letter to
Jefferson's letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787.
"4. Religion. Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object.
In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty & singularity of opinion.
Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious.
On the other hand, shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched.
Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. [ I thess 5:21. 2 Corin 13:5]
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country.
Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy & Tacitus.
The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor, in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature, does not weigh against them.
But those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces.
Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from God.
Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he relates.
For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood still several hours.
Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, &c.
But it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired.
The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it.
On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature that a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped, should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees, buildings, and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution, & that without a second general prostration.
Is this arrest of the earth's motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities?
You will next read the New Testament.
It is the history of a personage called Jesus.
Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions:
1,
of those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended & reversed the laws of nature at will, & ascended bodily into heaven;
and 2,
of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth,
of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind,
who set out without pretensions to divinity,
ended in believing them,
and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, & the second by exile, or death in fureâ.
See this law in the Digest Lib. 48. tit. 19. §. 28. 3. & Lipsius Lib 2. de cruce. cap. 2.
These questions are examined in the books I have mentioned under the head of religion, & several others. They will assist you in your inquiries, but keep your reason firmly on the watch in reading them all.
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by *any* fear of its consequences.
If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you.
If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness
that you are acting under his eye, &
that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement;
if that there be a future state,
the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it;
if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love.
In fine, I repeat, you must lay aside *all prejudice* on both sides, and neither believe nor reject anything, because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it.
Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness of the decision.
I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists.
Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics.
Most of these are lost. There are some, however, still extant, collected by Fabricius, which I will endeavor to get & send you."
with Love and respect,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: IF GOD COULD SAVE EVERYONE - WOULD HE? |
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| bitterlily wrote: | | IF GOD COULD SAVE EVERYONE - WOULD HE? |
Absolutely He would.
And guaranteedly he will: God is like the big elephant: He sits and gest what He wants!smile
Romans 11:26
26 And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
1 Timothy 2:1-5
1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
John 6:44-45
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 10:27-29
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
In Love of God who gets all he wants, which is all, which all is Him,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | Bitterlily honey, this is nothing new! Some call it UR, some call it Universal Salvation!
They believe that everybody will be saved! They will never make me believe that! |
Hi Nobby,
Why would you never believe that?
with Love and R,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | ...
One of the questions would be, did Jesus redeem everyone and even if he did, is he obligated to give eternal life to everyone? The scriptures plainly say he can do what he wants with his own.
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atoz: No, he's not obligated to but he wants to.
Genesis 1:26 And God said,
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
God made Himself into all men and made all men out of Himself.
So to lose any, He wd lose himself.
That is NOT ever going to happen as we can see from:
Luke 15:
3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4What man of you, having an hundred sheep,
if he lose one of them,
doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12And the younger of them said to his father,
Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him,
and had compassion,
and ran,
and fell on his neck,
and kissed him.
That's how it's gonna be for every person who has ever lived in every nation and of every religion or no religion or no country.
| MoJo wrote: | ...
Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Here are two verses which say who he laid down his life for. Are all men who ever lived his sheep? |
atoz: yes.
John 3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
| MoJo wrote: | ...
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
again the qualification; if any man enter in.
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atoz: No man can enter until God shows Him how.
So no man is lost until God shows him how.
And no man will be lost when God shows him how.
John 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jeremiah 31:3
3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying,
Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
| MoJo wrote: | ...
Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Psa 100:4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, [and] into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, [and] bless his name.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
This **is** saying that both the sheep **and** the goats belong to him. But what is the fate of the goats?
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Now, Jesus is the door and is standing at the door. We can only enter in through him.
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Jhn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
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atoz: Jesus is the door that says that Love is the key of the door or gate.
John 13:35
35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 15:
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
In the Love by which all men live, move and have their being as sheep and as goats in God,
atoz |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5046
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi atoz,
Universal Salvation
If you believe it here's 49 pages & thats just one thread, & no I won't unlock it, but you can read it if you want. You should have it done in a day or so!
God wants those that are seeking Him.
I don't believe He's going to fish them out of the lake of fire.  |
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