Why the beef about homosexuality?

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

I've wondered from time to time why there is such a focus on homosexuality as a sin as opposed to all other manifestations of sin. Why is it that some find it necessary to condemn this particular manifestation and to unscripturally characterize it as something more detestable to God than other sins?

1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven].

Wrongdoing. ALL wrongdoing, not only one, not this one over that one, but ALL wrongdoing is sin.

The scriptures speak in depth about a variety of 'sins':

Pride (the first sin, is it not? and the one sin which leads more people into further iniquity than any other)

Lying, cheating, stealing, murder, hatred, scorn, etc. etc. etc.

Scripture actually tells us that there is only ONE sin which is worse than any other:

Matthew 12:31-32 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy (every evil, abusive, injurious speaking, or indignity against sacred things) can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the [Holy] Spirit shall not and cannot be forgiven. (32) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Spirit, the Holy One, will not be forgiven, either in this world and age or in the world and age to come.

Mark 3:28-29 Truly and solemnly I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever abusive and blasphemous things they utter; (29) But whoever speaks abusively against or maliciously misrepresents the Holy Spirit can never get forgiveness, but is guilty of and is in the grasp of an everlasting trespass.

Luk 12:10 And everyone who makes a statement or speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit [that is, whoever intentionally comes short of the reverence due the Holy Spirit], it will not be forgiven him [for him there is no forgiveness].

Funny how homosexual activity is not mention here, isn't it?

Scripture further gives us direction on how to work with those of the faith who commit sin:

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother [believer] committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (17) All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven].

and scripture tells us how to work with those not of the faith who are IN sin (notice the difference between the faithful who 'commit' sin, and the non-believers who are IN sin? That is part of what the Word of God refers to as 'the Gospel of Christ'.); we are to share the Good News (Gospel) of Christ and Him crucified and to go out to all nations making disciples. We are not sent out to condemn and judge those who are already condemned in their sin, but to show them the way to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

However, back to the point of this thread:

I wonder at the extraordinary zeal and hatred some put in to their condemnation of homosexuality and where that self-righteous indignation comes from. It certainly does not come from scripture, nor the Gospel of Christ, nor the desire of God that none should perish but come to Him in faith, trust, and love.

I would assert that such anger and hatred comes straight from within. From a self-loathing for desires which one cannot reconcile as a remnant of the flesh in a spiritually regenerated soul. If indeed that soul has been regenerated and is not simply a person going through the motions without the benefit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Ultimately though, it comes down to an internal struggle against a desire and a lashing out at other as a result of that internal conflict.
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JP's Mind - my blog

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi rev-------------

I think that when a person lies or steals or commits adultery or any other sin they may commit they don't try to convince any one that it isn't wrong but just a life style to justify there behavior.

there are no murderer pride parades.There are no aclu lawyers out defending an arsonists right to set fire to stuff.Disney world doesn't have special weekends set aside for bank robbers and public schools don't teach that any other sinful behavior is acceptable except for homosexuality.

is homosexuality a bigger sin?of course not.But it is the only one we are being urged to accept.

much love---------knuckle

Bernardo · Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject:

as i red rev jp's OP the answer I was formulating was practically verbatim to knuckles...! Well said.

I can embrace a sorrowful (repenting) homosexual as a brother in the earthly church, but not one trying to convince me and others that their homosexuality is actually a good and the Biblical position against it evil, as per Isa 5:20: Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

But today a base hedonism seems to be permeating the land and many heterosexuals (many youngsters, the postmodernist crowd?) are also placing non-Biblical heterosexual activity in the same boat....and openly embrace the homosexual lifestyle as sharing the same essential goal (hedonism) as they. Different world today, God help us.

FFT · Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject:

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi FFT----------

Can you explain how it is not sinful?(I didn't say legal or moral or natural)

much love---------knuckle

FFT · Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject:

That's not particularly sensible. How am I supposed to prove that something is not sinful? It's not like the Bible has a list somewhere of every single activity ever which isn't sinful.

The onus is on those who wish to label it sinful to prove that the Bible supports their belief. And quite frankly, the Bible doesn't.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi FFT---------

Perhaps I am in error. Can you show me where these verses don't convey the idea that homosexuality is sin?
Am I reading something into them that isn't there?

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

ROM 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and
were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with
other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things
deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also
approve of those who practice them.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

much love------------knuckle

FFT · Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject:

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

knuckle, to answer your question from scripture, with no gymnastics or other such nonsense:

Homosexual activity is sinful. Homosexual orientation is a state of being.

No man is IN sin because he is a homosexual anymore than he would be for being hetrosexual, asexual, bisexual, etc. It is not the orientation, but the activity which is the sin.

As far as the comments regarding 'convincing people that it isn't wrong', I think that is a non-issue.

People lie, cheat, steal, hate their brothers and parents, etc. Many of these people fully justify their actions for a variety of reasons. Heck even members of this board justify their poor behavior by hiding behind the idea that they are not 'christians' and therefore not bound by the admonishment to be 'christ-like'. That does not however, excuse their behavior.

The point is simple though - the rabid vehemence against homosexuality that I see displayed by the religiously inclined (ie; self-righteous) seems to stem from a deep internal loathing for the desires they have and cannot reconcile. Ultimately it is evidence of their lordship over their own lives rather than the submission to the Lordship of Christ and the regeneration of the indwelt Holy Spirit.
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JP's Mind - my blog

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi Rev---------

So your saying that the majority of folks who condemn homosexuality have the desire to be homosexual?

would you say the same about other sexual immorality(pedophilia,beastiality,necrophilia,etc)----just trying to figure out exactly how much therapy knuckle is going to need cause I am against these too.

Is it our longing to commit any particular sin the reason we speak out against it?Do we speak as we do to the lost because we regret being saved?

FFT--------of course the opener knew the arguments and what justification his opponent would use,the same is the case for debates on the deity of Christ,the trinity etc.

much love-----knuckle

FFT · Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:15 am Post subject:

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi Rev----------

By rabid vehemence against homosexuality are you talking about those who will openly condemn a gay person to hell?Or the folks who are trying to save them from going there?I have seen the attitude in both camps.

as for the orientation VS the act being sin

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I am not saying that homosexuality is adultery but Christ was pretty plain that to think it was as bad as doing it.Sin comes from the heart Rev,regardless of what the sin is.

Now have I interpreted this verse correctly or is it too speaking of something entirely different.

much love----------knuckle

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi Rev--------

No I am not saying that a homosexual can not look at another member of the same sex without lust,they can.They can have purely platonic relationships.I have friends who are homosexual.

I think it is the terminology that is throwing me.A homosexual is defined as a person who engages in homosexual acts--that is what puts the sex in the word.

If a homosexual quits having homosexual acts then they are not a homosexual any more.However,Jesus said that to hold these thoughts is to commit them in your heart.

I as a heterosexual married man don't have to lust after every woman I see constantly,just one woman one time is enough to make me guilty of adultery in my heart. I can sympathize with those gay folk who deny themselves(I certainly wouldn't want to be celibate) , but if we believe that the act is a sin then the want to do them(even if it is only with their one true love) must be a sin too.

much love----------knuckle