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StElsewhere
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 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: Def: Oxymoronic: Being Gay and A Child of Christ |
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Definition: Child of Christ
Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And the will of the Father is:
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Definition: Gay
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
It doesn't sound like being Gay is tantamount to being holy...
Like I said polar opposites forced together are oxymoronic...and anyone who supports the "Gay Lifestyle" in word or deed...is doing no more than putting lipstick on a pig! ...and fooling themselves8-) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7562
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Def: Oxymoronic: Being Gay and A Child of Christ |
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| StElsewhere wrote: |
Definition: Gay
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. |
I can never figure out how to properly interpret this verse...
Does it only apply to those people who have sex with men who have vaginas?
Or is it explicitly condoning sodomy with one's wife?
By the way, do you obey ALL of Leviticus???
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: Re: Def: Oxymoronic: Being Gay and A Child of Christ |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | StElsewhere wrote: |
Definition: Gay
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. |
I can never figure out how to properly interpret this verse...
Does it only apply to those people who have sex with men who have vaginas?
Or is it explicitly condoning sodomy with one's wife?
By the way, do you obey ALL of Leviticus??? |
Look...Holy Scripture has come down over 5000 years...and 4 ancient languages...but certain basics have not changed...Man is Man...Woman is Woman...taking a deliberately ignorant stance is cool...but what does it do to further discourse? My post is very clear...all intelligent remarks will be responded to...If you can't handle this ...please move on!  |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Well, there are actually many different ways to interpret 18:22. There are two major ones—the obvious condemnation of homosexuality, and a condemnation of a specific form of prostitution practiced by at least one other religion in the Middle East when Leviticus was composed. One is supported by context. Can you guess which?
And his question as to whether you obey all of Leviticus is actually pretty important.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One is supported by context. Can you guess which? |
Definitely NOT the 'form of prostitution' baloney...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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StElsewhere
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Well, there are actually many different ways to interpret 18:22. There are two major ones—the obvious condemnation of homosexuality, and a condemnation of a specific form of prostitution practiced by at least one other religion in the Middle East when Leviticus was composed. One is supported by context. Can you guess which?
And his question as to whether you obey all of Leviticus is actually pretty important. |
You see the problem with you POV is that homosexuality was condemned under both the LAW and GRACE!...So it is not just a "Levitical Thing"... Again care to offer any scripture in support of your views? ...with all of your responses you have yet to offer one scripture in support of your POV...Either produce some...one...or state that your views are just that ...your views...and being that ...they have no bases in scripture! Which is also cool by me  |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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So, StElsewhere, do you follow all the Levitical laws? This is a very serious question - I hope you can understand why that is.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | One is supported by context. Can you guess which? |
Definitely NOT the 'form of prostitution' baloney... |
So the fact that the surrounding passages are all condemning religious activities practiced by surrounding cultures—
18:24 “‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things, for the nations which I am about to drive out before you have been defiled with all these things.
18:25 Therefore the land has become unclean and I have brought the punishment for its iniquity upon it, so that the land has vomited out its inhabitants.
18:26 You yourselves must obey my statutes and my regulations and must not do any of these abominations, both the native citizen and the resident foreigner in your midst,
18:27 for the people who were in the land before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become unclean.
—totally irrelevant?
| StElsewhere wrote: | | You see the problem with you POV is that homosexuality was condemned under both the LAW and GRACE!...So it is not just a "Levitical Thing"... Again care to offer any scripture in support of your views? ...with all of your responses you have yet to offer one scripture in support of your POV...Either produce some...one...or state that your views are just that ...your views...and being that ...they have no bases in scripture! Which is also cool by me |
There is no scripture which says outright "homosexuality [or, for RevJP's benefit, homosexual activity] is not a sin."
There are also no scriptures which state that driving is not a sin, that talking on the internet is not a sin, and so on. What we are left with is whether the Bible says that it is a sin, and it does not.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
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FFT, we've had this discussion more than a few times and you continue to bring it up as if it is something new.
Linguistically, grammatically, and contextually your point is invalid. The only way you can make the connection you try to make is to ignore the letter of scripture and the context as well.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7562
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | The only way you can make the connection you try to make is to ignore the letter of scripture and the context as well. |
Well, the letter of the scripture says that one shouldn't have sex with men who have vaginas (or that it's ok to sodomize one's wife).
And one major context is that people who use quote Leviticus in order to condemn homosexuality tend to be more than happy to ignore all sorts of other commandments in Leviticus.
RevJP, do you you obey ALL of the scriptures in Leviticus?
I'm guessing (and hoping) that you don't. So EVEN IF Leviticus really does condemn homosexuality, then why on Earth should we obey that particular verse when there are so many other verses which NOBODY obeys?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | FFT, we've had this discussion more than a few times and you continue to bring it up as if it is something new.
Linguistically, grammatically, and contextually your point is invalid. The only way you can make the connection you try to make is to ignore the letter of scripture and the context as well. |
What letter of scripture and context am I actually ignoring? I've pointed out the Hebrew and the context which supports my contention.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, the letter of the scripture says that one shouldn't have sex with men who have vaginas (or that it's ok to sodomize one's wife). |
I would hope you are just being silly for the sake of trying to start an argument. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to know that scripture does NOT say this, anywhere.
| Quote: | | And one major context is that people who use quote Leviticus in order to condemn homosexuality tend to be more than happy to ignore all sorts of other commandments in Leviticus. |
True, but irrelevant. Leviticus isn't the only place where homosexuality is deemed sinful.
| Quote: | | RevJP, do you you obey ALL of the scriptures in Leviticus? |
Relevance in light of the above?
| Quote: | | So EVEN IF Leviticus really does condemn homosexuality, then why on Earth should we obey that particular verse when there are so many other verses which NOBODY obeys? |
I've not seen anyone suggest that one should obey one part of scripture and ignore the rest. I have seen people try to justify certain acts because others are not regarded, however, that does not mean diddly. Sin is sin and simply because one falls in one area does not provide license to fall in all areas, does it?
Ultimately it is irrelevant when speaking to people not of the faith, for they are condemned in their sin regardless.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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StElsewhere
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Well, there are actually many different ways to interpret 18:22. There are two major ones—the obvious condemnation of homosexuality, and a condemnation of a specific form of prostitution practiced by at least one other religion in the Middle East when Leviticus was composed. One is supported by context. Can you guess which?
And his question as to whether you obey all of Leviticus is actually pretty important. |
Now you are trying to split hairs!  |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | Now you are trying to split hairs! |
An accurate understanding of what the Bible actually says is important when it comes to condemning people (especially considering we're not supposed to condemn people in the first place but HEY WHERE'S THE FUN IN THAT, RIGHT?).
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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StElsewhere
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | One is supported by context. Can you guess which? |
Definitely NOT the 'form of prostitution' baloney... |
So the fact that the surrounding passages are all condemning religious activities practiced by surrounding cultures—
18:24 “‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things, for the nations which I am about to drive out before you have been defiled with all these things.
18:25 Therefore the land has become unclean and I have brought the punishment for its iniquity upon it, so that the land has vomited out its inhabitants.
18:26 You yourselves must obey my statutes and my regulations and must not do any of these abominations, both the native citizen and the resident foreigner in your midst,
18:27 for the people who were in the land before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become unclean.
—totally irrelevant?
| StElsewhere wrote: | | You see the problem with you POV is that homosexuality was condemned under both the LAW and GRACE!...So it is not just a "Levitical Thing"... Again care to offer any scripture in support of your views? ...with all of your responses you have yet to offer one scripture in support of your POV...Either produce some...one...or state that your views are just that ...your views...and being that ...they have no bases in scripture! Which is also cool by me |
There is no scripture which says outright "homosexuality [or, for RevJP's benefit, homosexual activity] is not a sin."
There are also no scriptures which state that driving is not a sin, that talking on the internet is not a sin, and so on. What we are left with is whether the Bible says that it is a sin, and it does not. |
Now you are starting to sound silly... you know full well the word ...homo...anything was never used... The behavior was described very cleary...so clearly that through more than 5000 years through ancient languages ...His Word is still the same...and clear enough for all who don't have a problem with the truth |
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