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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| regnvejr wrote: | But the question here was how to deal with different people both feeling them being lead by the Holy Spirit and coming to opposite conclusions.
So two people feel the Holy Spirit guides tham and come to opposite conclusions about a subject. Is one of them lying? |
So, people 'feeling' that they are being led by the spirit is what is in question then?
I'd think that scripture would be the final arbitrator of these different 'feelings'. The Holy Spirit would not lead one into false understanding of God's Word. The two work in harmony with each other, not in contention.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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regnvejr
Big Goldfish
Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | regnvejr wrote: | But the question here was how to deal with different people both feeling them being lead by the Holy Spirit and coming to opposite conclusions.
So two people feel the Holy Spirit guides tham and come to opposite conclusions about a subject. Is one of them lying? |
So, people 'feeling' that they are being led by the spirit is what is in question then?
I'd think that scripture would be the final arbitrator of these different 'feelings'. The Holy Spirit would not lead one into false understanding of God's Word. The two work in harmony with each other, not in contention. |
So how do you know who is actually being led by the Holy Spirit and who is not? When both are convinced that they are and both have their selective Bible quotes to back up their belief, then how do you know which one is the unique and consistent Holy Spirit position? Do you base it on the Bible? Both have the bible on their side. Do you base it on your subjective view? Then that just compounds the problem, because how do you know that you are right?
It is a thorny issue, as there really is no way to know other than to know how one personally is led by the Holy Spirit. To try to second-guess whether the other person is being led by the Holy Spirit or not gets quite messy. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| regnvejr wrote: | | So how do you know who is actually being led by the Holy Spirit and who is not? When both are convinced that they are and both have their selective Bible quotes to back up their belief, then how do you know which one is the unique and consistent Holy Spirit position? |
That is the point. The bible isn't a buffet for one to pick and choose that which he/she wants to accept or not. Scripture must be reconciled with scripture.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| amen... |
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regnvejr
Big Goldfish
Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| And so, who is right? |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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about what?...  |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | regnvejr wrote: | | So how do you know who is actually being led by the Holy Spirit and who is not? When both are convinced that they are and both have their selective Bible quotes to back up their belief, then how do you know which one is the unique and consistent Holy Spirit position? |
That is the point. The bible isn't a buffet for one to pick and choose that which he/she wants to accept or not. Scripture must be reconciled with scripture. |
Exactly,
Concerning the Spirit, one of the simlariities between verses I have most recently noticed is from:
Ephesians 5:18-21:
| Quote: | 18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. |
and Colossians 3:16-19.
| Quote: | 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. |
By comparing these scriptures, we can se that being "filled with the Spirit" and "having the word of Christ dwell" in us produces the same results: Singing to the lord, giving thanks, and submitting to others.
So when the word of Christ dwells in us we are filled with the Spirit.
As far as those who are "led by the Spirit" and the differences in the interpretation of scripture. My general opinion is that when we take the Word of God over our own, this is faith. When we act on this faith, we are being led by the Spirit. (This is very simplified, but its the crux(pun intended  ) of the matter.)
The word and the Spirit work together. If one gets the Word they will have the Spirit.
But to extend this thought, although my opinion of these scripture comparisons may seem sound, if in the future I come across a third passage of scripture that seems to contradict my current position, I must consider one of 3 possibilities.
1. My first conlclusion about the the first 2 verses is wrong.
2. My interpretation of the third verse is wrong.
3. Or Both Interpretions are wrong.
This may sometimes be hard for people to do because they have live so many years believing one thing. But when scripture challenges what they believe they want try to make it fit into what they believe. I know I have a tendency to do this my self. But I still try to be objective for the purpose of making sure the truth is revealed. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
Location: WV
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it seems to me that there is no answer to who has the power to loose and bind. All have the gift of the Spirit, but who has the power to loose and bind?
Yesterday I go an invitation to a wedding to be held at the Christian Church. I graduated from highschool with this man and also his newly beloved. He's had two wives before and neither of them are dead. Is God going to recognize this as a marriage or is he going to see it as adultry? Does this church have authority to marry a divorced person? Will the previous marriages be discounted in heaven? If my church sactioned a marriage, I would believe it is sactioned in heaven, but we annul old marriages. Protestants just go ahead and marry people again and again. Somehow, I don't think they see their church as having any authority.
But Jesus did leave authority on earth. I want to know where it is if it's not with a church. All I get from the discussion here is "We all have the Holy Spirit to guide us", and while I agree with that, there must be an authority or chaos results. That's what I see among Protestants. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| regnvejr wrote: | | But the question here was how to deal with different people both feeling them being lead by the Holy Spirit and coming to opposite conclusions. |
God has provided a test, as to who has the truths of the Bible.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
Since the Bible plainly tells us that satan is at WAR against God's commandments, and the people who keep all God's commandments, out of love and loyalty towards God, we can then assume that every attempt to ignore or reject even one of God's commandments, is an act of satanic agencies.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make [b]war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [/b]
Now, we are also told that the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey God.......
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Did you notice the first condition ?
1.) Keep the commandmaments.....2.) THEN, the Comforter (H.S.)
Again......
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
God, thru the H.S. will ALWAYS lead people to the Law of God.
WHY ?
Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
To keep a person on the right track towards heaven, the Law of God is one of the means God uses.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: taking the fight to the enemy... |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | by: revjp...
In February I posted Onward Christian Soldiers in which I discussed the full armor of God, what it is and what it is used for; namely to fight the fight of faith and righteousness. I said:
So face the enemy in faith and righteousness my brothers and sisters, stand before your foe holding the shield of faith in one hand and wielding the sword of His Word in the other (2 Co 6:7 By [speaking] the word of truth, in the power of God, with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand [to attack] and for the left hand [to defend]).
....
Spiritual warfare has become an ‘in’ term in many circles. Yet spiritual warfare is simply a recognition of the reality of spiritual conflict – the fact that the Gospel story is not simply about God and people, but that it involves a third party, an implacable enemy, who seeks to hinder the advance of the Gospel on every turn.
As Matthew Henry observes:
“The work of the ministry is a spiritual warfare with spiritual enemies, and for spiritual purposes.” |
Xlnt, RevJP!
But HOW do we attack and defend that implacable foe?
In Love of that foe as God commands,
Mt 5:43-8, 1 Peter 5:8-9
or
in Hate of him as God commands not and as that foe hates us? 1 John 2:9, 11.
Since faith works by Love,
Gal 5:6,
isn't the shield of faith the Shield of Love that quenches or neutralizes the diery darts of hatred from that wicked one?
in the Force-field of Love by which Satan is defeated and from which he flees and must flee,
atoz |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: taking the fight to the enemy... |
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It is the cunning of Satan that the death of Christ brought in grace to take the place of the law.
The death of Jesus did not change or annul or lessen in the slightest degree the law of Ten Commandments (Matthew 5:17,18).
That precious grace offered to men through a Saviour's blood establishes the law of God.
Since the fall of man, God's moral government and His grace are inseparable.
They go hand in hand through all dispensations.
"Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Psalm 85:10).
Jesus, our Substitute, consented to bear for man the penalty of the law transgressed.
He clothed His divinity with humanity and thus became the Son of man, a Saviour and Redeemer.
The very fact of the death of God's dear Son to redeem man shows the immutability of the divine law.
How easily, from the transgressor's standpoint, could God have abolished His law, thus providing a way whereby men could be saved and Christ remain in heaven !
The doctrine which teaches freedom, through grace, to break the law is a fatal delusion.
Every transgressor of God's law is a sinner, and none can be sanctified while living in known sin.
The condescension and agony of God's dear Son were not endured to purchase for man liberty to transgress the Father's law and yet sit down with Christ in His throne.
It was that through His merits and the exercise of repentance and faith the most guilty sinner might receive pardon and obtain strength to live a life of obedience. The sinner is not saved in his sins, but from his sins.
What Sin Is
The soul must first be convicted of sin before the sinner will feel a desire to come to Christ. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).
"I had not known sin, but by the law" (Romans 7:7).
When the commandment came home to Saul's conscience, sin revived, and he died.
He saw himself condemned by the law of God.
The sinner cannot be convinced of his guilt unless he understands what constitutes sin.
It is impossible for an individual to experience Bible sanctification while he holds that if he believes in Christ it is immaterial whether he obeys God's law or disobeys it.
Those who profess to keep the law of God and yet at heart are indulging in sin are condemned by the True Witness.....the Bible
They claim to be rich in a knowledge of the truth; but they are not in harmony with its sacred principles.
The truth does not sanctify their lives.
God's Word declares that the professed commandment-keeper whose life contradicts his faith is blind, wretched, poor, and naked.
God's law is the mirror presenting a complete reflection of the man as he is, and holding up before him the correct likeness.
Some will turn away and forget this picture, while others will employ abusive epithets against the law, as though this would cure their defects of character.
Still others who are condemned by the law will repent of their transgressions and, through faith in Christ's merits, will perfect Christian character.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="cballard"]
But then comes the nitty-gritty stuff.
| Quote: | | And that’s not all. You will have complete and free access to God’s kingdom, keys to open any and every door; no more barriers between heaven and earth, earth and heaven. A yes on earth is yes in heaven. A no on earth is no in heaven.” |
atoz: Cb, sorry to be so late! smile
CB: As a Catholic, I have never heard the Protestant understanding of this verse.
atoz: It is all based on God's Unconditional Law of Love for the positive and the negative.
That Love for yes and no means that the first sin is to hate either a yes or a no.
So that verse means at least 4 things:
1. A Yes in Love of a No is a Yes.
2. A Yes in Hate of a No is a No.
3. A No in Love of a Yes is a No.
4. A No in Hate of Yes is a No.
Next variable: God has to want it: God willing. James 4:13-16.
cb: Does the YOU mean each and every Christian can say yes on earth and it is a yes in heaven?
atoz: Yes but only if it is said in Love and if in Love god is willing at that time: he in Love might not be willing at that time.
cb:Yes to what? To Love for every word of God and its opposite: see Eccles 3:1-8 for 28 examples.
cb: Yes, we agree it is no longer a sin even though it was in past times?
atoz: no. First of all, the sin is always any Hate for who or for what God loves. That Love and therefore sin is unchangeable no matter what the subject or time or place or situation.
cb: Would heaven agree that something, like say abortion or homosexuality is right if an individual decides in their own conscience it is right for them?
atoz: The sin was never abortion because God aborts in miscarriages and he does not sin and he does abort in love. Therefore the sin in abortion is the Abortion of Love or the Pregnancy of Hate in any person involved with the abortion, not the abortion itself.
The sin in homosexuality is the sin of hatred, which makes straight sex as sinful when done in Hatred of, for example, getting no sex.
cb: A Do we have absolute freedom to follow our conscience?
atoz: Only when that conscience has been educated with/CON the Law of Love for every word of God and its opposite...so that we have all science CON or WITH Love and so have Love-Pure Consciences that can say: To the Pure, all things are pure. Titus 1:15.
cb: That just doesn't sound right to me.
atoz: that is why it is so important to follow the law of Love for every word of God and its opposite. That Love is the right sound of a sound mind that empowers us to NOT go by sight nor by sound nor by taste nor by touch nor by smell nor by anything else BUT by Love. 2 Corin 5:7.
It is only by the Law of Love for right and the wrong that we can see :
that the first real wrong is any hatred of whatever we consider as wrong;
that when one right is different to another right, that different right might as well be or sounds wrong or sounds not right, NOT because it is wrong, but because it is different to the other right and so might as well be wrong since right is also different from wrong!
hope that helps.
in the sound of Love for all sounds that makes a sound mind,
atoz, the honorary catholic in love of protestants |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | The answer is simply: God's Word.
The understanding of and interpretation of God's Word: The Holy Spirit. |
atoz: Yes.
And God's Holy Spirit is Love, the Holy Spirit of God's & Jesus' mind.
Philippians 2: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
And that Holy Spirit of Love is unconditional: Matt 5:43-48.
And therefore Love for every word of God and its opposite is the sign of the Holy Spirit of God at work.
in Love of friends and enemies,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| regnvejr wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | The answer is simply: God's Word.
The understanding of and interpretation of God's Word: The Holy Spirit. |
So whose Holy Spirit is the right one, when it tells two different people two different things? |
Hi,
Great q!
The one who is the right one is the one who LOVES both different and opposite things, ------the one who has the Spirit of Love for friends and enemies, for you going north and they going south!!!!
See acts 15:36-41: Both Paul & Barnabas had OPPOSITE truths or opinions and BOTH were right but different and so LOOKED as if ONE was wrong, and BOTH were in Love!
They disagreed disagreeably WHILE AGREEING TO LOVE, ---WHILE IN THE AGREEMENT OF LOVE!
in Love of the right and the wrong,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| regnvejr wrote: | ....So two people feel the Holy Spirit guides tham and come to opposite conclusions about a subject. Is one of them lying?
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atoz: Not necessarily.
In Love of every word of God and its opposite, of liars and truthers, we wd know that people with opposing truths to us only LOOK like or SOUND like liars, while we only LOOk and SOUND like liars to them.
If both are in Love of liars and truthers, both opposite conclusions are right in ONE spirit of Love.
If either one hates the other, both are wrong not for what they beleive but in HOW they beleive it.
If only one loves both,
the other is a liar, not for what he beleives, but for calling himself a Christian who is known by uncondit Love for both opposites and so is lying about his LOVE!
R: How do you know which one is right?
a: by Love for both himself and the other. mat 5;48.
R: Both feel guidance of the Holy Spirit, both see justification for their views and beliefs in the Bible. How do you tell?
a: Unconditional Love for both opposites is the test:
John 21:
15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?
He saith unto him,
Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.
He saith unto him,
Feed my lambs.
16He saith to him again the second time,
Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?
He saith unto him,
Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.
He saith unto him,
Feed my sheep.
17He saith unto him the third time,
Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?
Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time,
Lovest thou me?
And he said unto him,
Lord, thou knowest all things;
thou knowest that I love thee.
Jesus saith unto him,
Feed my sheep.
with the Love that makes every word food for thought,
atoz |
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