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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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 Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: Is there any point to this? |
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Maybe this is the wrong forum for this line of questioning. Perhaps this should be an article or something, but I have to ask because a lot of the posts in this forum are irritating the crap out of me.
Maybe I should mind my own business and just stay out of this forum, BUT I do have an opinion that I'd like to express.
Is there any point to all this doctrinal arguing? Honestly, most of it seems like semantical bull**** to me. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, especially since I am horrifically guilty of having done the same thing in my past.
My point is that when I used to do it I did it because I was right, **** it! I was right and anyone who disagreed with me was unenlightened and wrong. So I argued and argued and argued. I was a smug, self-righteous ******* and if anyone called me something to that extent I would have called the judgement of God down on them or patronized them with the typical, "we'll eventually see who's right" response.
The fact is that there IS no point to all these doctrinal arguments. You may very well change your mind 5 or 10 years from now or even tomorrow for that matter. You may think you're trying to save people from themselves or from making doctrinal errors, but all you are really doing is feeding your own, over-inflated ego. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Is there any point to this? |
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Hi Graphics guy | graphicsguy wrote: | | The fact is that there IS no point to all these doctrinal arguments. You may very well change your mind 5 or 10 years from now or even tomorrow for that matter. |
Well that's perfectly true, but I can think of two reasons:
John 4:24 where Jesus says God wants people to worship Him in spirit and in truth. I take that as meaning in walk and talk, in theory and practice. Some of these doctrinal arguments do make a difference.
e.g. Is it doctrinally correct to drop napalm on a Vietnamese village? It may be a doctrinal issue if you're on a forum, but not if you're drafted. And certainly not if you happen to be an old lady in the Vietnamese village in question.
e.g. Should Christians use medicine to treat illness/mental illness? That's a doctrinal issue to some, unless you're actually sick. Should we choke the demons out like the Korean pastor who fractured a woman's rib cage and punctured her lung? (then kept her body in a garage while he tried to resurrect her).
e.g. (less tangible in the short term, but probably more important in the long run) who is Jesus anyway? Does it matter if I'm following a Jesus whom I made up? Is the real Jesus sitting there thinking "what on earth is this guy doing, he'd be better off following Venkateshwara"
One theory is that Christianity / Christendom could, if it paid attention to what Christ said, have been a fairly good force on this planet for 20 centuries. The fact that it hasn't been is not because people have cared too much about what Christ said and stuck too closely to his Father's word. The same on a smaller scale works true in some lives.
S. |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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I guess my point is that once you have stated your point you should leave it at that unless someone asks for clarification. Arguing in circles, trying to force people towards your point of view is absolutely pointless.
You cannot force ANYBODY to change their opinion or their point of view. That is why there are moderators in formal debates. They ask each person to clearly express their point of view, give their evidence/reasoning for such, then they will open the floor for questions/clarification. It is supposed to be then left up to the viewer/listener/reader to decide who has the stronger argument and to make decisions for themselves.
To me, I see a huge difference in asking questions about a point of view (thus forcing people to offer more proof and/or explain more clearly) and simply arguing your own point of view in response. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I think that as long as people stay on the right track, the idea is to help each other test ideas. The more an idea stands up to scrutiny, the stronger it is. If it doesn't stand up, then the idea can be modified so that it does stand up - thus the idea becomes stronger.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Hi Graphics guy | graphicsguy wrote: | | You cannot force ANYBODY to change their opinion or their point of view. |
No you can't, but you can encourage some people who are ready to see another point of view to get past the obstacles others have put in their way. Precisely who and which issues depends..
What should we expect? Paul walks into the Agora in Acts 17 and the Stoics, Epicureans and Theophoboi (uncircumcised YHWH worshippers) all just fall at his feet? Hardly. But some people benefitted. Check out the contrast between the two below as well:
Acts 26:28 And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?”
2 Corinthians 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.
God bless
S. |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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I think you're right, Ana, which is why I brought up the point of asking questions in lieu of simply arguing in circles. I've just been looking at some of the posts recently and it seems many of them are pages and pages of circular arguments without anybody asking for clarification...and if someone does ask a decent question they tend to get sluffed off or ignored.
We scrutinize by asking questions. We come up with answers that confirm or deny the arguments. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3292
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| gg wrote: | I think you're right, Ana, which is why I brought up the point of asking questions in lieu of simply arguing in circles. I've just been looking at some of the posts recently and it seems many of them are pages and pages of circular arguments without anybody asking for clarification...and if someone does ask a decent question they tend to get sluffed off or ignored.
We scrutinize by asking questions. We come up with answers that confirm or deny the arguments. |
Amen gg. I absolutely agree with you even though I sometimes get caught up in this myself. But I think it's a snare, so at least I'm aware of it and will just withdraw myself from the debate if I see myself doing it. but the whole forum testifies to arguing the same points over and over again in the same manner by which rarely results in either side changing there viewpoint.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Mojo,
And like I said, I'm as guilty of it myself. We hardly realize that we'll regret 7/8 of what we've ever said ten years from now. I'll probably regret all the fighting I'm doing on here eventually...then again, I am finding that it's been quite therapeutic. Getting things off my chest during the day has made me a little happier at home this week... |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 968
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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My take on all this is that I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss the bible with people who have a different opinion from my own.
I admit that I haven't changed many of my opinions in a big way. But I have obtained a deeper understanding and respect for those that I disagree with.
The other thing I want to say on this is that the ideas we give each other may be like seeds. They make take time to grow. Even though at the moment I may express my disagreement with someone, it may be that a year or ten years from now the ideas I encounter here may have matured enough within me to amount to a real transformation. I remember old arguments I had where someone failed to change my mind at the time. But years later I find myself agreeing with that person.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Is there any point to this? |
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| graphicsguy wrote: | Maybe this is the wrong forum for this line of questioning. Perhaps this should be an article or something, but I have to ask because a lot of the posts in this forum are irritating the crap out of me.
Maybe I should mind my own business and just stay out of this forum, BUT I do have an opinion that I'd like to express.
Is there any point to all this doctrinal arguing? Honestly, most of it seems like semantical bull**** to me. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, especially since I am horrifically guilty of having done the same thing in my past.
My point is that when I used to do it I did it because I was right, **** it! I was right and anyone who disagreed with me was unenlightened and wrong. So I argued and argued and argued. I was a smug, self-righteous ******* and if anyone called me something to that extent I would have called the judgement of God down on them or patronized them with the typical, "we'll eventually see who's right" response.
The fact is that there IS no point to all these doctrinal arguments. You may very well change your mind 5 or 10 years from now or even tomorrow for that matter. You may think you're trying to save people from themselves or from making doctrinal errors, but all you are really doing is feeding your own, over-inflated ego. |
Precisely why Ive been feeling to start pulling out of 'debate' abroad, take it to my own forum as much as possible...work on our teachings for our website and only hop into threads here and there where we can offer a bit of help to someone with questions.
Now, if you are saying that YOU argued because of whatever your motivations were, then thats fine, but some of us arent concerned in the least about being 'right' in the eyes of others, but only in trying to keep our less studied brethren from being led astray by wolves in the church....such as those who cause frivolous divorce by trying to 'reconcile covenant marriages'.
When these wolves seek to devour godly marriages, sometimes it takes a heated conversation that may seem like its an 'Im right' thing.
At the end of the day I couldnt care less who thinks Im right or wrong as long as someones marriage has been saved. |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| graphicsguy wrote: | I guess my point is that once you have stated your point you should leave it at that unless someone asks for clarification. Arguing in circles, trying to force people towards your point of view is absolutely pointless.
You cannot force ANYBODY to change their opinion or their point of view. That is why there are moderators in formal debates. They ask each person to clearly express their point of view, give their evidence/reasoning for such, then they will open the floor for questions/clarification. It is supposed to be then left up to the viewer/listener/reader to decide who has the stronger argument and to make decisions for themselves.
To me, I see a huge difference in asking questions about a point of view (thus forcing people to offer more proof and/or explain more clearly) and simply arguing your own point of view in response. |
I agree wholeheartedly with your posts here 
that is why some time ago I/We/our ministry decided that we are not out to change the minds of those who are 'debating' the matter with us, but our goal is to refute each and every false assertion they present that might cause damage to a brother or sister.
Take the MDR topic.
Someone that posts here a bit would like nothing more than to see a remarried brother and sister walk away from that marriage EVEN IF there is no just cause for divorce there at all, and most likely to live lives of celebacy because in most cases their ex spouses have remarried.
So what am I supposed to do? Sit back, read the lies they present and say nothing ?
So lets say I respond once...what happens then?
This wolf then posts again with even more nonsense trying to destroy this brothers marriage.
Do I respond to this new material or sit back and hope that our brother isnt convinced that he has to divorce somehow?
So I respond a second time...guess what happens then?
Two or three of these false ones start prowling around like wolves around a dead carcass so now we're fighting off three of these folks and this brother STILL is confused and doesnt have the answers he came looking for..but he is being overwhelmed by these who are trying to tear his marriage apart with doctrines of devils.
At what point should I abandon my brother here to these false teachers for the sake of not appearing like Im trying to be right ?
Sometimes there are FAR deeper motivations in these discusssions than just trying to be right.
Even in provoking an opposing viewpoint we sometimes can inspire a change of heart.
case in point...there is a dear sister who was caught up in these false doctrines mere weeks ago. After a few 'heated' discussions where Im sure it looked like everyone was trying to be 'right', she has finally understood that the marriage covenant is conditional....quite serious and meant for life, but not without condition.
Should we have given up on her because it looked like we were only trying to be right ?
Im sure you see where this is going.
Sometimes all is not as it might seem |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I honestly have no clue what the "MDR" thing is...
Anyway, I don't disagree with what you are saying...especially if a person's well being completely depends on the argument at hand. However, people still have to make their own decisions based on their own personal convictions...even if those convictions are wrong. |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| graphicsguy wrote: | | However, people still have to make their own decisions based on their own personal convictions...even if those convictions are wrong. |
What if my "personal convictions" are that you should be killed? (I don't intend that as a threat, I'm just using an extreme example). Who's to say what are right or wrong convictions? I guess what I'm really asking is, doesn't there need to be a higher authority with an absolute standard? Otherwise anything goes.
My view on the specific topic at hand is that there is an absolute Lord over this universe, and He has given us absolute parameters in which to live our lives, and commanded that we introduce others to Him and His requirements for us. Therefore some of us believe it is our duty to strive day and night to lead people to Him so that they may also become His children and heirs to His Kingdom. To not do so is to have no regard for the well being of those around us.
I do agree with you that there are many in these types of forums who have been sold some religion, and desperately cling to the doctrines that have been marketed to them to the point that they spend all of their time arguing in favor this religion. These types tend to be adamant and intellectually dishonest, and just want to affirm in their own minds what they already believe regardless of the facts presented to them.
There are others who call themselves "Christians" yet openly live lifestyles that God condemns, and spend every waking moment of their lives trying to justify their sin rather than turning from it. The "MDR" that foc refers to is "Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage," and is a good example of this. Jesus said that "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery" because according to the Bible marriage is a lifelong covenant that only ends when someone dies. People like foc are in adulterous so-called "marriages" right now and seek out forums like this where they can argue about the issue and "prove" that Jesus didn't really mean what He said in order to appease their own consciences.
Perhaps many people debate for selfish reasons, but some do because they really believe what they are promoting, and want to help others to come to the light and know Christ. Even some of those that are mistaken or misinterpreting.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are others who call themselves "Christians" yet openly live lifestyles that God condemns, and spend every waking moment of their lives trying to justify their sin rather than turning from it. |
and there are some that have secret sin in their own lives and have to deflect their own guilt onto others to make themselves feel more holy and justified.
God knows the truth tho 
| Quote: | | Jesus said that "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery" because according to the Bible marriage is a lifelong covenant that only ends when someone dies. |
Sorry chap, but Jesus made exception for adultery.
"everyone who divorces, EXCEPT for fornication, and remarries commits adultery"
I notice you always leave that part out
and before you get started
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.
| Quote: | | People like foc are in adulterous so-called "marriages" right now |
People like foc are remarried after putting away a wife for fornication...thus no adultery was committed upon remarriage as per our Lords own words that you have to distort to make your heresy work
People like David cant accept when their whole foundation to their false doctrine has been torn apart
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin..
| Quote: |
and seek out forums like this where they can argue about the issue and "prove" that Jesus didn't really mean what He said |
You mean what He said like 'EXCEPT for fornication', david ?
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.
and its much better than stalking around like a viper trying to tear marriages apart, then bragging about it when you succeed.
how many marriages have you helped to destroy again, david?
| Quote: |
in order to appease their own consciences. |
Sorry chap, but there is nothing to appease.
You, on the other hand, have something you need to repent of
Im here when you decide to repent and need someone to talk about it with...
Last edited by FoC on Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I just cannot help but respond to this because the irony is just too funny.
| Quote: | Seeledeternel
I do agree with you that there are many in these types of forums who have been sold some religion, and desperately cling to the doctrines that have been marketed to them to the point that they spend all of their time arguing in favor this religion. These types tend to be adamant and intellectually dishonest, and just want to affirm in their own minds what they already believe regardless of the facts presented to them. |
this is hilarious because Davids whole foundation for his doctrinal viewpoint is that Deut 24:1-4 is about sexual sins of the betrothed wife.
Take that from him and his whole doctrine is a lie founded upon a lie.
Given proof that it cannot be the case, and David knows there is no refutation for, he still chooses to cling to this error rather than accept the fact that hes been teaching a lie to Gods elect.
REaders compare these while understanding that without Deut 24:1-4 being about sexual sins of the betrothed, Davids whole doctrine is pretty much a complete sham..
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.
There is no clause for divorce in the law for sexual sin.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black
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