The Crucifixion

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

Why did Christ pardon the jew who were killing him
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ftvvil

Van · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:54 pm Post subject:

The Bible does not say why Jesus prayed for God's forgiveness for the ones killing him. But it would seem Jesus was praying for those doing the task of putting Jesus to death. So that would be Roman soldiers, and not Jews. Or Jesus might have had all of them in mind, Jew and Gentile involved in the predestined act brought to fruition in part by ignorance.

Jesus had taught that we should forgive those who trespass (sin) against us. Since Jesus was sinless, His act of forgiveness could be seen as not only consistent with the will of God, but also a further revelation of God to us that God is love.

Some who might have shouted, "Give us Barbarus" out of ignorance were saved (forgiven!) after Pentecost (Acts 3:17-18 ). God desires to save all men, even those at the foot of the Cross. Behold, the Lamb of God.

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

[Great, so God forgave them who ever is not the point, My point was: Wasn't that forgiveness an act of fruittility. Don't you believe that unless you believe in Christ you are not going to heaven. these people did not believe in Christ so they were doomed inspite of the fact that he pardoned them?

Sure they might have changed their minds after the fact but that in itself would have been enough to save them from hell without Christs pardon.

My drift is I have a problem with the concept that unless you belueve in Christ you are doomed to hell. Now I know it doesnt say that specifically but its either Heaven or hell or is there a third alternative?

God is a loving God and all of us are his children who he loves equally yet about one in five of his children do not believe in him. Is this loving God condeming all of the 4 or 5 billion of his children to Hell who do not believe in him?

If so, that doesn't sound very loving to me. Most of the 4 or 5 billion non believers don't get a chance to know of Christ. Help me understand.
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ftvvil

Van · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:53 am Post subject:

You bring up an interesting concept that I had never considered. Thanks.

Forgiving others is an act of humility, and if we expect forgiveness, an act of integrety. And if we expect to reach others with the Gospel, an act of testamony. Therefore, it is not an act of futility.

However, it is this next point which is new to me: Can God forgive sin, even though it is not covered by the blood of Jesus. Since God is holy, without the sacrifice of Jesus, we must remain separated from God, doomed to eternal darkness, but can God adjust the punishment of those who face punishment rather than mercy based on factors like the prayers of others during the lifetime of the doomed sinner? I do not know! The Bible does teach that the punishment of those who sin in ignorance is not as bad as those who willfully sin, so Jesus was possibly revealing this truth from the cross.

Van · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:14 am Post subject:

As far as the rest of your post, here is what the bible says, as I understand it.

The only way to heaven, to eternal life with God, is to believe in Jesus the Christ.

God in His sovereignty created mankind for His purpose, that some would glorify God by placing their heartfelt trust in God and His Christ.

Those that never had a chance to believe the gospel face punishment for their deeds, they will be justly punished. None of the 4 or 5 billion will receive anything but justice. They will be judged by the law written on their hearts.

Underlying your problem is the myth that Hell is unjust, that people who sinned for the short period of their lifetime face intolerable torment for eternity. This is a fiction in my view. Those who do not believe are eternally separated from God so they face eternal punishment and eternal darkness as a consequence of the separation. Additionally they will punished for their specific misdeeds, such that those who sin more store up more wrath. But they will only receive punishment due as recompense for their deeds, and not any injustice.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

As I was reading this post I was struck by the possibility of Christ's sense of the irony - even at His death.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" What is being said here?

The Romans, of course, were merely carrying out the sentence, they did not know that they were essentially executing an innocent man, so forgiveness for them for they knew not what they did? I can see that.

The Jews however, had a belief that they were executing a heretic, a maniac who claimed to be God and by law had to die - they did not know they were actually killing the messaiah - forgiveness for this, perhaps. Particularly since this killing was necessary for God's plan of salvation, which the jews did not know...

So, the irony is; The jews were trying to maintain their way of life, their belief system, and in doing this they sentenced Christ to die - in an effort to eliminate a 'rabble-rouser' who was disrupting their way of life. What they did not know is that by killing Jesus, they were actually destroying the foundation of that way of life, bringing about the prophecy of the messaiah, destroying the purpose of the law which was their basis for thier way of life. They did not know that there actions, taken in an effort to maintain the status quo, in fact was the catalyst which destroyed the status quo.

I could see Jesus, in pain, on the cross, shaking His head with the thought that they don't know that they are doing exactly what they were trying to prevent....
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ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

ftvill,

Contrary to what most believe, I do not agree that the scriptures teach that the lost will be held in eternal torment. I agree that this goes against love, especially in light fo the fact that God is the one who grants faith and repentence.
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17

ftvvil · Little Guppy Joined: 25 Jul 2003 Posts: 33

hey guy you make sense who are you?

if God is going to put 4 out of five of his children in hell who wants that kind of God

cours I wouldn't mind putting some of my eight children there for a few hours but not all eternity
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ftvvil

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Winston · Big Goldfish Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Posts: 74

Hmmm,

RevJP, you stated.

revmattchoo.com · House Cat Joined: 02 Sep 2003 Posts: 168

spelling:

*crucifixion*
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“Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.” - C.S. Lewis

“Has this world been so kind to you that you should leave with regret? There are better things ahead than any we leave behind.” - C.S. Lewis

shepreach · Cobra Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 493 Location: ga

i don't see the problem here. we forgive people all the time without sending them anywhere. why couldn't Jesus do the same. He was like us until He died and rose again.

as far as God sending people to hell, He doesn't. man earns his way there with his disbelief.
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I'm wounded sore but not yet slain, I'll lie and bleed awhile then rise to fight again.
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RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Good point preach... I was just rereading this thread and it struck me that Christ's act of forgiveness does not equate to salvation.

As born again Christians we have our salvation through our reliance on Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, however, we still ask for forgiveness for our sins, daily (preferably).

Christ's forgiveness to those who crucified Him was an example to us to forgive those who do us harm, or trespass against us (as his entire life was our example of how to live).
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Nobby · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:17 pm Post subject: